'what about the men' -any tips for how to respond?

[Interestedwoman]

I hope I'm posting this in the right place. Either way, please be gentle with me :)

I have a male friend, and often if I say stuff about women's experience or feminism, he'll say 'women can be controlling to men, too' or 'that happens to men as well' etc lines.

In part of a discussion of whether there were any political outcomes it was worth losing friends for, and whether we cared about any goal enough that if we knew it would lose us all our friends we would still rub the lamp and have a genie make it come true (this was at my instigation as friends are very important to me, I have a complex about it.) I said :-

'I suppose if it was 'end all violence against women on this earth' I'd probably still go for it.'

He said (yep you guessed it) 'End all violence against people on this earth, surely?'

Any tips on how to respond to stuff like this? (I still want to keep him as a friend.)

It strikes me as being a bit like when in response to 'Black Lives Matter,' someone says 'All lives matter.'

Tyro,

That last post is definitely worth ‘Pseuds’ corner’ in Private Eye.

Anger moves us to action. What that action will be depends on both nature and nurture.

Tag "humour" could do with exploration with reference to Darwinian truths too. Keep at it, mate, you'll get there in the end.

@larrygrylls
The testosterone being linked to aggression has been disproved. Your study is from 1991 and was done on rats.
Look at the more recent studies like this one which studied humans:

Prejudice and truth about the effect of testosterone on human bargaining behaviour

C. Eisenegger, M. Naef, R. Snozzi, M. Heinrichs & E. Fehr
“Both biosociological and psychological models, as well as animal research, suggest that testosterone has a key role in social interactions1,2,3,4,5,6,7. Evidence from animal studies in rodents shows that testosterone causes aggressive behaviour towards conspecifics7. Folk wisdom generalizes and adapts these findings to humans, suggesting that testosterone induces antisocial, egoistic, or even aggressive human behaviours. However, many researchers have questioned this folk hypothesis1,2,3,4,5,6, arguing that testosterone is primarily involved in status-related behaviours in challenging social interactions, but causal evidence that discriminates between these views is sparse. Here we show that the sublingual administration of a single dose of testosterone in women causes a substantial increase in fair bargaining behaviour, thereby reducing bargaining conflicts and increasing the efficiency of social interactions. However, subjects who believed that they received testosterone—regardless of whether they actually received it or not—behaved much more unfairly than those who believed that they were treated with placebo. Thus, the folk hypothesis seems to generate a strong negative association between subjects’ beliefs and the fairness of their offers, even though testosterone administration actually causes a substantial increase in the frequency of fair bargaining offers in our experiment.“

You have very thought provoking posts and I agree with most of what you say. Just wanted to add here where you said

If we could accurately detect and count inwardly-directed aggression incidences in males and females, you'd see the pattern

We can detect and count inward directed aggression that translates into physical violence- it’s called suicide. Suicide is self murder. It is the end result in inward directed aggression and violence. And men are by far at highest risk of suicide.

Society drives men moreso than women to kill themselves and others.

Parental infanticide and child murder though.,,that is the one area of violence where women exceed men as perpetrators.

Cos they're left ''holding the baby''

puck
Yes, and that is why male violence decreases in societies where women are more equal to men. Because women are no longer left holding the baby when they have partners who share parenting.

The cycle of abuse is well known and feeds violence. So one thing we can do is fund more DV shelters.

Parental infanticide and child murder though.,,that is the one area of violence where women exceed men as perpetrators.

Parental infanticide is about equal between mothers and fathers - but the greatest statistical risk to a child is a stepfather.

No way is 'child murder' - ie an adult murdering a child who is not their offspring (I assume) equal though. Men are predominantly the perpetrators here. Usually with a sexual motivation.

I think better mental health care for men would be good. I just have a feeling/opinion that some suicides kill themselves because they fear hurting others.

Some are partially unsuccessful- majority of murder-suicides are by men.

And of course, some are completely unsuccessful as men do the most murders.

I think it might all be linked...the aggression and anger and then whether it is turned inwards or outwards may be environment or a trigger.

If we can get men to good mental help before they become unhinged, that would save not just their lives but the lives of countless victims.

I was referring to parental infanticide and parental child murder. Sorry for not being clear there.

I am looking at the British Medical Journal study done titled
“Child homicide perpetrators worldwide: a systematic review”

“A systematic review of 9431 studies derived from 18 databases led to the inclusion of 126 studies after double screening. All included studies reported a number or proportion of child homicides perpetrators. 169 countries and homicide experts were surveyed in addition. The median proportion for each perpetrator category was calculated by region and overall and by age groups and sex.

Data from 33 countries distinguishing the perpetrators of parental homicides of children under the age of 18years showed that mothers committed just over half of all parental homicides (median 54.7%, IQR 36.7–68.8)

The 12 countries with detailed data on parent as perpetrators showed mothers commit the majority of parental homicides of children under 1year (71.7% (IQR: 50.2–75.7)).

Seven studies investigated perpetrators of neonaticides (defined as the murder of an infant within 24 hours of birth,...13 countries had data and the vast majority of neonaticides are committed by mothers (100%, IQR 92.9–100). Fathers committed very few neonaticides (0.00%, IQR: 0.0–6.7).”

That's assuming that:

1.there's some kind of plateau between men behaving normally and them becoming "unhinged"

1. violent men will accept that there is an issue with their behaviour
2. That if they accept it they are willing to seek/accept help

4.pathologising abusive behaviours won't backfire and men will have yet one more excuse for their poor behaviour.

Ah ok - I remember researching UK home office stats for parental child murder (due to an outrageous claim by an MRA on here years ago) - and the figures for mothers and fathers are about equal for children. But stepfathers are the greatest risk.

But neonatal - yes, I imagine that will predominantly be mothers - for various reasons - including the burden of care falling to the mother, PND and mothers being accused of murder when there is cot death etc etc.

Don't know if the countries are named,but I wonder how many of them(especially the ones with the highest rates) have access to good healthcare,free contraception and more importantly legal abortion.

This same study stated
“Children face the highest risk of homicide by parents, followed by acquaintance.”

So if you are under 18, your mother is the most likely person to murder you out of all possibilities including father, acquaintance or stranger.

Yay, I found a link to the study in English and not behind a pay wall.
bmjpaedsopen.bmj.com/content/1/1/e000112

It lists that they looked at all WHO countries including high income countries; The high-income countries (classified by the World Bank15) included Australia, Austria, Canada, Chile, Denmark, England and Wales, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, Iceland, Isle of Man, Japan, Korea Rep., Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Scotland, Sweden, Switzerland, the UK and the USA.

@WhiskeyLullaby
Agree with your #4. That is a good point, would not want pure evil to be let off on an insanity plea.

@WhiskeyLullaby

Don't know if the countries are named,but I wonder how many of them(especially the ones with the highest rates) have access to good healthcare,free contraception and more importantly legal abortion.

USA has very high rates despite being high income....and I agree with you 100% that their lack of healthcare, costly contraception and awful abortion laws are directly contributing. As is lack of paid maternity leave.

It’s all part the more equal women are, the lower rates of violence are on all fronts.

The USA has way higher violent crime and murder rates, so many more violent men.

So I see it as the toxic masculinity and patriarchal constructs moulding men to be violent against other adults and, to a lesser degree, women towards children (child murder is waaaaaaay lower than adult murder and nowhere near as massive a problem as adult murder by men)

I guess it depends which study you look at.

Overall, fathers were significantly more likely to kill their children than mothers, and were more likely to use violent methods of killing, have previous convictions for violent offences, perpetrate multiple killings, and have a history of substance misuse or dependence.

Mental health is massively implicated, as is the age of the mother when she gives birth (younger = greater risk).

From a Manchester University study. www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/news/findings-from-most-in-depth-study-into-uk-parents-who-kill-their-children/

Hit post too soon. So basically women’s rights and equality saves not just women’s lives through reduced levels of violence, but that of men and children. It is good for all. :)

So basically women’s rights and equality saves not just women’s lives through reduced levels of violence, but that of men and children. It is good for all.

Well I'll certainly drink to that.

Yes, flushed zebra, but your study is only 1 country. Mine was worldwide and looked at hundreds of countries, including all the high income ones I listed. The thread is about world violence too, not U.K. violence.

Yes, there will be differences between countries, of course. I was - have always been - talking about the UK . Because that's where I am.

Ah flashedzebra, your study sample size is very small at only 342 child murders, and murders only done by parents/step parents.

“Academics from the University's Institute of Brain Behaviour and Mental Health analysed 297 cases of convicted filicide and 45 cases of filicide-suicides in England and Wales occurring between January 1997 and December 2006”

Mine looked at 75, 496 child homicides and looked at all homicides...parents, acquaintances, strangers, etc