'what about the men' -any tips for how to respond?

[Interestedwoman]

I hope I'm posting this in the right place. Either way, please be gentle with me :)

I have a male friend, and often if I say stuff about women's experience or feminism, he'll say 'women can be controlling to men, too' or 'that happens to men as well' etc lines.

In part of a discussion of whether there were any political outcomes it was worth losing friends for, and whether we cared about any goal enough that if we knew it would lose us all our friends we would still rub the lamp and have a genie make it come true (this was at my instigation as friends are very important to me, I have a complex about it.) I said :-

'I suppose if it was 'end all violence against women on this earth' I'd probably still go for it.'

He said (yep you guessed it) 'End all violence against people on this earth, surely?'

Any tips on how to respond to stuff like this? (I still want to keep him as a friend.)

It strikes me as being a bit like when in response to 'Black Lives Matter,' someone says 'All lives matter.'

No I think plenty of men have made that attempt like Ghandi and the concept of ahimsa, Martin Luther King jr and his non-violent activism. I’m all ears to hear about any cultures that you believe have cracked the violence problem.

Any tips on how to respond to 'what about the men?'?

Is it 'turn up and start shouting 'what about the men?' all over the thread?

While being men.

Just ask what is he/men doing about it?
9 out of 10 will respond with nothing.
The 10th has examples of badgering women to pick up the slack or instead of campaigning for funding wants access to services for women.

Then continue with "why aren't you/men doing more about it?" It's either a serious issue that deserves their attention,time,effort,money etc or it isn't.

Repeat as needed.

Warning: they do shut up,but they get huffy .

Interesting thread & wish I would remember the NHS analogy when I'm next confronted by the whataboutery, & that article was fantastic

Also really glad rockluvindad gone & agog that he can't see how contradictory he was being.

Personally I think men do feel attacked when confronted by the fact that most violence is committed by males.

It's a bit like the attitude supporting the England football team, 'we did it' when they win, 'they were shit' when they lose.

I'm from NI & am disappointed & ashamed about the recent arrests from here, even though it is nothing to do with me

I think the 'what about men' is used as deflection and a way to shut down debate. Whenever Refuge or Women's Aid post something somebody (men and women) comes on and rant with what about the men. Bearing in mind these are women's charities it's a joke.
I am a victim of domestic abuse, I don't deny it happens to men, but it happens to women more and women have got off their arses and advocated for other women.

Sounds to me like he could be a perpetrator himself if he is that uncomfortable talking about women and the violence they endure.
Of course if we had a genie we would wish to end all violence, but most of it is committed by men anyway so without the genie that is the place to start.

That moment when the busiest whatabouter on the thread equates feminism with nazism. 🙄

Check Karen Ingala Smith Counting Dead Women on line - she has 2 or 3 incredibly well researched posts on exactly this for when she is criticised for making a list of women killed by male violence.

10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.

'10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.'

No. It makes violent men look bad. Look at the men around you whom you love and respect. Does violence reflect badly on them? Male violence does not shame me any more than it does you.

“ No. It makes violent men look bad. Look at the men around you whom you love and respect. Does violence reflect badly on them? Male violence does not shame me any more than it does you.”
Doesn’t it? If I were a member of a class that committed the overwhelming majority of violent crimes, I would, I hope, feel a bit ashamed, and want to do something about it. At the very least, I would want to think about whether the way I live my life and raise my children did anything to contribute to a society where this happened. At the very least

If I were a member of a class that committed the overwhelming majority of violent crimes, I would, I hope, feel a bit ashamed, and want to do something about it. At the very least, I would want to think about whether the way I live my life and raise my children did anything to contribute to a society where this happened. At the very least

Do people really think like this? I'm white, middle class. I'm also very civic minded, more socialist in my politics, I don't feel responsible or ashamed of things that other white middle class people do that harms others. I judge them and despise what they do (Tories looking at you) but it doesn't reflect on me,nor am I responsible for what they do.

Violent men reflect only violent men in my opinion.

I can look at the white 'community', the black 'community', the Asian 'community' in the UK. I can be simplistic, bigoted and xenophobic and accuse them of all sorts if I want to practice my racism and generate hatred. I don't, because I am not an idiot. I don't expect my mixed race son or daughter to feel shame because some kids from the same ethnic background in South London engage in crime.

I'm not sure why you want to keep him as a friend. He sounds like an arse.
But, in the spirit of answering your question, then I would say to him, 'That's an interesting position,' MN head tilt. 'Let me suggest some books/articles/statistics that might help you understand why I hold my view.'
or 'You do know the stats on DV in the UK and globally?'
If no, then suggest he looks into them before adopting a view on the topic. If yes, then say he must then understand why you hold your view.
Personally I find 'what about the menz' types are never acting in good faith. So my response is usually, 'if you think the response to this topic is to say what about the menz - then we're at different levels of understanding. And I don't think we should discuss it again until you're knowledgeable about and have read: Greer; De Beuvoir; feminism, DV, etc,'

“For anyone asking what men can do- here followeth The List.

See, that list is quite ridiculous because it pre supposes that all men do those things or are in a position to do those things.

How many men are on boards that have a say over promotions, hirings etc?

How many women call out sexist, misogynistic views everytime they see them? In my recent experience it has been the very opposite - women expressing the misogynistic views (particularly around maternity leave and career progression after) while it was the men calling it out.

As for raising sons - how well do women raise sons? How well do we do at raising decent men of the future? I see lots of mums telling boys that they shouldn't cry, not to be a baby etc whilst cuddling daughters and being kind to them when they get upset.

It's ridiculous to say this is what men should do when we as women should be doing it too.

It‘a bit the same as the black or white communities. Over 90% of all violent crime is committed by men. I think it’s time they took a bit of responsibility for that statistic.

“ It's ridiculous to say this is what men should do when we as women should be doing it too.”

The List is for when people say “What can men do?” It doesn’t say women shouldn’t be doing it too.

But how is your average non violent man any more responsible for the behaviour of other men than I am for the behaviour of other women?

They aren’t responsible for t he behaviour of other men. But they are contributing to a society which is allowing male violence to happen. And they need to be part of the solution.

The List is for when people say “What can men do?” It doesn’t say women shouldn’t be doing it too.

But that list is too simplistic and ignores the real causes of these issues.

How about tackling the education system that ensures that white working class boys are the most failed group in the system?

Who is responsible for that?

It's interesting when you look at the data for prisoners and the numbers who are illiterate. How was that allowed to happen? What impact does that have on children as they grow? How does that shape the adult they grow into?

How about the responsibility of parents (both of them) to be decent parents and to raise their children well, to ensure they are educated, loved, cared for? Surely lack of these things contributes towards poor outcomes in adulthood?

They aren’t responsible for t he behaviour of other men. But they are contributing to a society which is allowing male violence to happen. And they need to be part of the solution.

How are they contributing any more or less than women in society?

Presumably then we are all responsible for changing this?

“But that list is too simplistic and ignores the real causes of these issues.“
Yes, it’s simplistic. But it is things that men can do now that will make a diffference. As they used to say in the old days when feminists were feminists, “the personal is political.

I could do another list of things that need to be done on the macro scale. But most men would say, rightly, that they aren’t in a position personally to do those things.

For what it's worth I think Dervel makes a good point about corporal punishment.

My siblings and I were all smacked in place of good parenting that teaches respect and conflict resolution and empathy. We all agree as adults that all this taught us, girls and boy alike, is that men are dangerous, and it's important never to get caught.

There are some astonishingly obvious things that could be done to tackle male violence, but since this involves a painfully honest look at how and why it emerges and is inadequately checked, men aren't willing, in my experience, to allow the discussion at all, and most women are damned uncomfortable with it.

Well I posted back on Saturday afternoon the things that I do personally. I have a responsibility when raising my own family, and to the people around me. I accept that, but I don't think it's much different to whatever anybody else here does.

As for the OP's friend, he is reacting to the OP in the wrong way. She expresses a wish that is personal to her. He should respect that. He can move the conversation on by expressing his own wish, as per the discussion. He could wish for all violence to end, or violence only towards men, or a lifetime supply of cheese. It's a personal view, and he should respect that.

How are they contributing any more or less than women in society?

What I don't do as a woman but have seen many boys and men do:

Laugh at and promote "jailbait" posts and jokes.
Shout,leer, whistle etc at another person.
Go to strip clubs.
Use prostitutes ,cam girls etc.
Watch porn.
Touch or harass another person.
Beep,stop or interfere in other people's conversations or daily lives .
Engage in "banter".
Use phrases like "throw like a girl", "you're such a pussy" etc.
Assume people can or can't do things based on their sex.
Laugh at or promote sexist ,mysoginistic or rape jokes.
Minimise,dismiss or laugh at women being assaulted and harassed.
Minimise another woman's worry or fear about behaviours,situations etc.
Discourage any kind of violence not just male on male.
I have the same expectations for boys as I do for girls.

If any suggestions, even the "simplistic" ones are met with men couldn't possibly do it or should even be expected to, then how do you think the big changes will take place?

Men could change things if they really wanted to ,at least on a small ,personal level. Since a lot if them don't it means either they don't have ant to,or they must feel like they benefit in some way from the way things are now.

I'm suddenly reminded of a conversation with my dad a few years ago. He was washing his hands of all responsibility for male violence (conveniently forgetting the way he used to assault his kids...), saying there was nothing he personally could do about it. I suggested one thing he might do is gently challenge other men's sexism, because they don't listen to women but they listen to other men.

No point, he said, they don't listen to me either. He wouldn't be persuaded otherwise.

Later the conversation turned to how men react to being turned down. I explained the shit women have to put up with, with men just refusing to accept the basic premise that "no thanks, I'm not interested" isn't an invitation to being harassed all evening. He told me about the few occasions men have expressed an interest in him, and have accepted his initial polite rejection and moved on with all civility.

Yet he remains convinced that his words carry no greater weight with men than any woman's word, and that men are no more likely to accept his words than mine.

There's plenty men can do about male violence. Accepting they have collective responsibility for policing their class is the first step.