Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A picture speaks a thousand words. Transwomen in women’s sport

341 replies

LemonGingerCakes · 23/10/2019 22:23

I've never started a thread like this before, but this is bothering me.

No comments. Just letting the pictures speak.

Spot the transwoman.

How is this fair?

A picture speaks a thousand words. Transwomen in women’s sport
OP posts:
Thread gallery
38
EndoplasmicReticulum · 25/10/2019 18:05

I'm mostly smooth unless it's the morning after too much red wine. Was wondering if we have any other organelles on the board.

ErrolTheDragon · 25/10/2019 18:17

Can I remind people on this thread that it's always a good idea to check the Petitions board when there are things happening which might prompt a petition?

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 25/10/2019 18:53

Your opinions, when you don't understand these terms, are uneducated and frankly they are not valid.

Let's engage with a word or two on the subject of education, PP. It nurtures debate. It encourages challenge. It enhances autonomy through independent engagement and it necessitates critical thinking.

Note that word: 'necessitates'. There is no higher education without criticality. These things, as absolute fundamentals, are what higher education does. Fundamentalist belief-systems without room for debate or questioning have no room in education. There's another word for this. 'Indoctrination'. Another thing Higher Education excels in is interdisciplinary research WHERE - and this disclaimer is crucial - the disciplines inform and enhance one another. Now let's consider the trans-athlete who is the subject of recent controversy, and her contributions to this arena. She bands around her 'Dr' title as a talisman she believes she can carry unchallenged through life. She uses it to lend credibility to her chosen assertions, whether they're informed by her academic research or related to the topic of her postdoctoral research or not. (The subject of her PhD thesis was, interestingly enough, the art of how to BS convincingly).

Dr. M. is a philosopher by trade. She appropriates sport science and biology, using her academic credentials to validate any assertions she makes that are way beyond the scope of her expertise. (Incidentally, this is a pity. She's a lively, engaging and entertaining speaker. But what she says has little substance). As a humanities scholar, if I attend a conference of the physical sciences and use my own credentials to spit on their craft, so to speak, I will a), rightly be seen as an imposter and have the entire substance of what I say disregarded, b), excoriated in the Q&A following the paper, and c) laughed off the panel. Why? Because I'm not a physical scientist. Neither is Dr. M.

Anyone else trying to pull that stunt will be instantly seen through and discredited. Which begs the question: why not her? And whatever her views on binary versus spectrum and the gender/sex distinction, what is not - and has never been possible - is to determine how far human subjectivity is socially constructed and how far it's rooted in essentialism. No one. None. They've been chewing the fat on this one for over three decades and we're still none the wiser.

You can argue til the cows come home on this point and you'll still be on a treadmill to nowhere. It doesn't negate the truths of the pictures previously posted on this thread. And it doesn't come at the expense of women whose bodies are under threat from those with a more powerful physique, and whose physical safety (and segregated places) are more an imperative that someone else's 'validation'.

ARoombaOfOnesOwn · 25/10/2019 19:05

Dr. M. is a philosopher by trade.

I will never not love Rod Liddle’s description of RMK’s quals:

Rachel McKinnon also identifies as a ‘doctor’, having completed a PhD in Specious Twattery at some dimbo college in Canada.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 25/10/2019 19:11

Rachel McKinnon also identifies as a ‘doctor’, having completed a PhD in Specious Twattery at some dimbo college in Canada.

Yes. McKinnon’s thesis was called ‘Reasonable Assertions: On Norms of Assertion and Why You Don't Need to Know What You're Talking About.’

Tanith · 25/10/2019 19:13

"Can I remind people on this thread that it's always a good idea to check the Petitions board when there are things happening which might prompt a petition?"

I'd like to point out that the Petitions and Activism board is under Classified.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 25/10/2019 19:58

I'd like to point out that the Petitions and Activism board is under Classified.

So it is, I just found it there. Thanks Tanith.

ErrolTheDragon · 25/10/2019 20:05

Thanks Tanith - I use the app and just start typing 'petition' into the topic chooser. Some boards are hard to find if you use the categories in the browser!

Easy to find, if anyone wants it, the thesis upon which the statement 'I'm a Doctor ' rests.

uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/handle/10012/6619

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 25/10/2019 20:07

Rachel McKinnon also identifies as a ‘doctor’, having completed a PhD in Specious Twattery at some dimbo college in Canada.

Ha ha yes! Well if TW want to be women, identify as women ergo 'are' women, then by all accounts they should be delighted to be dimbos and share in some of the patronising sexism the rest of us have been exposed to since the year dot. What's sauce for the goose 'n' all that ...

ThreeLittleDinosaursROAR · 25/10/2019 20:28

Wait, so men (or males🙄) can now identify as women and doctors?!

NearlyGranny · 25/10/2019 23:45

Transwomen, even if they lower their testosterone levels to normal readings for females, can never be asked to give up the extra bone length and muscle mass they acquired as males post-puberty. Transwomen, even with artificially raised testosterone levels, can never go back and acquire them.

Sport is no longer a level playing field.

I am reminded of the Eastern bloc swimming coach back in the day who was asked why the improvement of the men's performance had not matched that of the women's. "We can turn women into men but we cannot turn men into fish."

How these people can accept the medals and stand on the podium without shame is baffling.

ErrolTheDragon · 25/10/2019 23:57

I think you meant 'transmen' in the second sentence, but otherwise spot on.

InionEile · 26/10/2019 00:17

An outgrowth of ‘Lean In’, ‘girls can do anything if they try hard enough’ school of feminism that assumes that the only reason for women’s oppression is their own willingness to step up and do what men do. Totally ignoring female biology and systemic oppression based on our biology. Equality not equity, a classic mistake that woke folx are more than able to see with regard to race but not with regard to sex for some reason.

GeorgeFayne · 26/10/2019 00:35

LemonGinger
Wonderful thread! This really does sum it all up.

snowbear and UnbowedUnbentUnbroken
I believe the only "confirmation" of the sex of the athletes in question has come from the Chinese government, such a reputable source. Though shocking in 2019, I think it's probably still OK to believe what we see and hear. (Have you seen the video?) In my opinion, that photo absolutely belongs here.

And as for Judas: oh, I do hope you're enjoying those 30 pieces of silver. You've clearly sold your soul...

By the way, education is what led me to question the whole genderism movement. I only hope I can continue to learn more!

MrGHardy · 26/10/2019 01:59

The wrestling one is a girl, no? Who is allowed to take testosterone, i.e. a PED, due to feeling like a boy.

MrGsFancyNewVagina · 26/10/2019 02:13

MrGHardy, you’re not supposed to say that the wrestling one is a girl, or you’ll be called out as a big bad transphobe. Naughty. Grin The one who is taking a drug that is normally banned in sport, is permitted to take it, because they want to be called a boy/man. Now if they didn’t want to be called a boy/man and were just a typical female wrestler who acknowledges that they are actually female, but decided to take the drug to enhance their strength, they would be called a cheater and banned. Is that clear enough?

Short version.
Female wants to be called a boy and takes testosterone - that’s fine.
Female acknowledges that they are female, but takes drug. - they are a cheat and would be banned.

SophiaLarsen · 26/10/2019 12:51

Commenting on this debate for the first time really. I heard someone on the radio the other day extolling the virtues of being non-binary. What stood out for me was the fact that they said they did not feel like they fitted into the male social dynamic and that sometimes they identified more with being female. This person was biologically male.

For me it appeared more about people from the different sexes embracing the left and right of arc within their own sex to allow their own gender to feel included. It was like the feeling of exclusion drove them to feel that they must actually belong in a different group be it female or non-binary. If the individual feels female (but isn't biologically) we should just accept this.

As a woman, competing in a sport with someone biologically male who has had the benefit of going through puberty and all that that brings with it becomes fundamentally unfair.

My career field is made up predominantly of men and physical ability is a key requirement. Fitness standards are adjusted for male and female sexes. There have been quite a few transgender women in that field and they have nearly always always been wholly male (and make a point of saying so) but donning a skirt and some lippy and asking to become 'one of the girls'.

It feels like an elephant in the room. Where they literally take up space in a male fashion but expect the women to feel ok with them being in the few women's spaces available.
I say few women's spaces because more often than not there are for example male loos and disabled loos and men & women use the disabled loos but only men use the mens. In one location you have to transit though a shower room and changing space to get to the disabled loo. The men who use the changing space do not care if women come through. There is no segregation of changing space. Just to give an idea.

There have been one or 2 what in my opinion I would call genuine transgender women in my work and they behave completely differently to the 'loud and proud variant' and have gone to the enormous effort to become as close as possible as it could be to looking like a biological woman (and I don't mean lipstick and unicorn sparkle...one has short hair and wears trousers but she has concentrated carefully on gait etc) don't tell the world about it never push their agenda and if you did not know because you had not witnessed their transition you would never guess. There seems to be a split between types of transgender.

The sporting world is curiously biased against women only sport to the point of penalising a woman with higher than average testosterone levels but allowing access to a transgender woman who may not have much testosterone now but has benefitted massively from the hormone it the formative years. Baffling really.

SophiaLarsen · 26/10/2019 12:56

When I said we should just accept this I did not think we should. I meant to to sound oppressive.

Michelleoftheresistance · 26/10/2019 13:09

It's baffling because there are so many and varied attempts to validate it by muddying waters of fact. Such as well is testosterone really such an advantage and are there really such difference between male and female development etc etc etc.

This is where people get confused, because it isn't about fact at all. It's quite simple. The heart of this is that someone is what they feel inside, regardless of the exterior and facts, and the 'right' thing to do is accept them wholeheartedly and welcome them as they would like to be. To unconditionally validate and support their chosen self.

Which sounds lovely, but as this board lists in many and varied forms, impacts on the rights of women in many, multiple and varied ways that aren't an acceptable side effect of male born people being able to never encounter a 'no' or a boundary to their chosen identity that 'invalidates' it. This is named as 'discrimination' because of the central premise that if you say you are then that identity is who you are in fact.

This is why when anyone says, 'but that's not fair because...' - it's transphobia. This is why when anyone says, 'but women need....' - it's transphobia. This is why when anyone says 'sex based rights...' - it's transphobia. Transphobia is not unconditionally supporting someone in their perceived self and pretending there are no differences, no side effects or impacts on others in order to protect that perceived self.

Fairness in women's sport, in fact women's sport and women athletes, wholly cease to matter in this, which is why there is this increasingly baffled and frustrated discourse of women talking about facts and women's rights and being called evil transphobes. It's a fundamental misunderstanding. Women are focused on what is best for women as a class. To trans ideology this is all about the focus on never allowing anything to challenge the person's self identified reality. Anything that does is transphobic. So male born people should be welcomed into women's races and celebrated for their wonderful women athletic achievements because that is what preserves and protects their chosen identity.

And there you see the entire problem with the movement. As Rhys-Mogg nailed it in one line: other people have rights too.

3timeslucky · 26/10/2019 14:01

We're talking about this at home and my husband asked (and I couldn't answer so maybe someone here can help), why did/does the IOC not require transwomen to lower their testosterone level to the range of normal testosterone levels for women?

And his second question was how does the IOC justify not letting women raise their testosterone levels to the same levels allowed for transwomen? (Neither he nor I is suggesting that would be desirable or solve the problem).

stillmed.olympic.org/Documents/Commissions_PDFfiles/Medical_commission/2015-11_ioc_consensus_meeting_on_sex_reassignment_and_hyperandrogenism-en.pdf
Reference ranges:
Male: 10 – 30 nmol/L
Female: 0.7 – 2.8 nmol/L
(NHS)

AlecTrevelyan006 · 26/10/2019 14:16

www.thecollegefix.com/big-sky-conference-names-male-runner-female-athlete-of-the-week-leaves-out-hes-transgender/

USA - Big Sky Conference names male runner ‘female athlete of the week,’ leaves out he’s transgender

StarGOLD · 26/10/2019 20:51

This transwoman takes the place of a woman on the Kent County Cricket women's team. The Women's Cricket organisers in the UK have announced plans to expand and promote women's and girls cricket...not really displaying that here. Bullshit.

A picture speaks a thousand words. Transwomen in women’s sport
madeyemoodysmum · 26/10/2019 21:12

Marking and Keeping thread to read properly later

andyoldlabour · 26/10/2019 21:20

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Swipe left for the next trending thread