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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Second Shelf books, at it again

130 replies

MrsSnippyPants · 21/10/2019 10:59

Compare and contrast:

The literary and journalism community in the UK is transphobic apparently. Yet TRAs are gloating over the death of a journalist.

She is very invested in this ideology.

Second Shelf books, at it again
Second Shelf books, at it again
OP posts:
eBooksAreBooks · 21/10/2019 14:56

Why are you giving the impression that you couldn't care less that we lost two feminist bookshops

The loss of an independent bookshop is always sad.

RoyalCorgi · 21/10/2019 15:00

Perhaps a couple of threads on here extolling their virtues to the proper feminists could have saved them.

Given that Mumsnet was founded in 2000, and had a very small user base for several years, and Silver Moon closed in 2001, it seems unlikely don't you think?

But really, why are you bothering? You're just yet another misogynist who can't stand women gathering together to discuss stuff. All over the internet you'll find people discussing businesses they do or don't like, often in pretty robust terms, but no, you have to come here and have a go at feminists discussing feminism. You people really can't stand it, can you?

TalkingintheDark · 21/10/2019 15:06

the establishment of the political, social, and economic rights of the female sex

So by the definition you yourself have quoted, ebooks, feminism is for those of us who are female. Nothing there about the rights of male people. You haven’t really demonstrated a case for including them in your “feminism”, have you?

Karabair · 21/10/2019 15:07

Haha, ebooks you're sounding like that Twtter feed again. I'm sure all booksellers don't speak the same way.

I too was "intrigued"..... by the voice of Second Shelf Book's Twitter feed which is why I'm noticing yours now. It has a certain robotic quality and also there's the false "we" when there is only one person running it. The only thing I could think of was that the Twitterer behind it was writing as if it was the bookshop itself that was tweeting, what a bookshop would say if it could talk. I guess I'll never know as we're on different sides but it entertained me for a short while to think about it.

TalkingintheDark · 21/10/2019 15:11

And as to why feminist bookshops find it so hard to survive... most women don’t identify as any kind of feminist. It’s still a dirty word, a joke. That’s how deep internalised misogyny goes.

Our patriarchal society is riddled with it, and with the women who throw other women under the bus as a coping mechanism for dealing with it.

Patriarchy-pleasing women who collaborate with misogynists do well under patriarchy: no shit, Sherlock!

ErrolTheDragon · 21/10/2019 15:20

the establishment of the political, social, and economic rights of the female sex

Good, think we're all agreed on that. (I'm assuming the OED has a meaningful definition of 'female')

Karabair · 21/10/2019 15:24

Virago is the women's publisher that has been going since 1972, although I think I can spot the term "trans" on a bookcover on their website

www.virago.co.uk/

The Women's Press was another one.

Karabair · 21/10/2019 15:29

There is also the very wonderful Persephone Press, which publishes 20th century women writers, including Virginia Woolf. Their books are beautiful too:

www.persephonebooks.co.uk/

They also have a bookshop!

eBooksAreBooks · 21/10/2019 15:30

you people

Hmm, is that all women who don't think like you?

Another dictionary definition for you: "you people"
Noun
(plural only)

(pejorative) Any outsiders of a clique.
Members of a particular group, collectively.
That is the type of thing you people would say.
(US, Maine) Plural of you.
Usage notes:
In the United States, this expression, however intended by the speaker, has been interpreted as indicative of racism when used in discourse with those of a race different from the speaker's, or of discrimination on an ethnic or religious basis in analogous situations.

Not a good look.

eBooksAreBooks · 21/10/2019 15:32

There is also the very wonderful Persephone Press, which publishes 20th century women writers, including Virginia Woolf. Their books are beautiful too

Persephone is indeed wonderful, I have spent hours just stroking the end-papers.

TalkingintheDark · 21/10/2019 15:32

Yes, I think even the once wonderful Virago has capitulated, Karabair.
Tragic.

smemorata · 21/10/2019 15:34

She could quite easily have stated that she was trans inclusive but that everyone was welcome. Instead she decided to call women Terfs and refuse customers. Yanbu OP!

DuMondeB · 21/10/2019 15:34

That ‘feminist’ shop is an absolute shit show.

TalkingintheDark · 21/10/2019 15:35

But eBooks, you didn’t engage with the point that by your own offering of a definition of feminism, male people are necessarily excluded!

Why would that be, I wonder? Surely you’re here in good faith to have a reasoned discussion, aren’t you?

Karabair · 21/10/2019 15:37

Their shop is just round the corner from Soho isn't it?

Sorry Smile

I will be visiting the next time I'm in London.

Women-centered is so much more interesting, invigorating and exciting than dull "inclusivity' (of males). Come and join us ebooks and bring your friend Second Shelf.

Karabair · 21/10/2019 15:38

It is tragic isn't it Talking. These women's business were a beacon.

TalkingintheDark · 21/10/2019 15:38

She could quite easily have stated that she was trans inclusive but that everyone was welcome.

Actually, I’m not so sure she could. TRAs demand complete capitulation: anything less than explicitly excluding and condemning wicked “T*RFs” would be seen as fraternisation with the enemy and a terrible betrayal of those Very Important Penises.

She knows which side her bread is buttered on.

eBooksAreBooks · 21/10/2019 15:39

But eBooks, you didn’t engage with the point that by your own offering of a definition of feminism, male people are necessarily excluded!

I don't exclude trans women from my feminism. Everyone benefits from feminism.

HorseWithNoFucksToGive · 21/10/2019 15:40

I have a feeling that we're due a "TWAW" any minute now.

I love the smell of manTRAs first thing in the afternoon.

Chandlersthirdnipple · 21/10/2019 15:40

News From Nowhere in Liverpool isn’t specifically a feminist bookshop, but it has many feminist books & is run by an all women collective. They also got harassed a few years ago & forced into the grovelling apology prostration we’re not worthy process by TRAs for selling a booklet which was gender critical. So they’ve submitted in a way but I think mostly due to weather have to to survive’. I heard rumours they still sell it if you ask for it, they just took it off display, but I’ve not been in the city for a few years so I can’t be sure. If it’s true it’s a horrid symptom of where we are - forced to sell radical feminist literature covertly under the counter.

TalkingintheDark · 21/10/2019 15:45

I don't exclude trans women from my feminism. Everyone benefits from feminism.

So why then did you yourself provide a definition of feminism that says it’s about the rights of the female sex?

eBooksAreBooks · 21/10/2019 15:45

I have a feeling that we're due a "TWAW" any minute now. I love the smell of manTRAs first thing in the afternoon.

Un peu goady, non?

I will continue to say that I don't exclude trans women from my feminism. Everyone benefits from feminism.

You, are not the feminism police.

TalkingintheDark · 21/10/2019 15:52

Nobody’s policing you, it was your definition - the one you sourced and provided.

Are you now saying you disagree with the OED definition of feminism? The one you said you were fighting for?

Karabair · 21/10/2019 15:52

"my feminism"

a term almost always used by people who want to change the meaning of feminism to suit males better

Men lose out because of feminism and rightly so, they have a lot to lose. If feminism is good for men it's probably not feminism.

Coyoacan · 21/10/2019 15:54

Second shelf isn’t “inclusive.” It excluded all the women branded as TFs

That is the issue. Nobody is campaigning or complaining about a feminist bookshop having LibFem or transgender writers on its shelves. This person has taken to twitter to insult feminists, after having taken money from them to set up her business.