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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Second Shelf London

223 replies

lionheart · 12/10/2019 15:10

Anyone been watching this drama played out on the Twitter?

jaded millennial
@MillennialJaded

'A women’s bookshop I was interested in visiting is now openly ‘anti terf’ & they publically shamed someone they were following for tweeting an article on sport & trans. FFS this climate is chilling',

A little snippet from the shop itself (one of many on the issue):

'The Second Shelf
@secondshelfbks
·
19h

'We want to be clear, we are uninterested in the transexclusionary feminist position! We understand there is discomfort w/ the acronym TERF. But this seems to be because the negative connotations don’t sit well with the position holder? Maybe it’s evidence of a terrible stance?'

OP posts:
DodoPatrol · 18/02/2020 11:58

what’s in people’s pants does not effect how you should treat them

It really, really does, if you're:
a medic trying to decide if this person has normal blood readings for their sex
or a teacher landed with the job of sorting your residential trip accommodation into dorms
or a couple attempting to conceive

just off the top of my head

Lordfrontpaw · 18/02/2020 12:02

Well, if someone has a - erm - ‘passion in his pants and ain’t ashamed to show it’ I’d definitely treat him differently to the other guy serving in Burger King.

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 18/02/2020 12:08

I stand with the trans community and shout CHAPEAU at the top of my lungs to The Second Shelf.

GrinGrinGrin

MrsSnippyPants · 18/02/2020 12:10

The woman who runs the bookshop often refers to her child as 'the kid'. Just saying......

GCAcademic · 18/02/2020 12:13

The woman who runs the bookshop often refers to her child as 'the kid'.

Does this woman identify as a goat?

OldCrone · 18/02/2020 12:15

If anything the trans and non-binary movement is a way of helping women to liberate themselves from the patriarchal, essentialist views that yoke women to their biology. We should all be trans.

Have you ever heard of feminism? You should read up on it, although as a 'scholar of art and literature', I'm surprised you haven't come across it before. It is feminism that helps women to liberate themselves, not by denying that we are female, but by saying we should not be limited by that fact.

Women who say they are trans or non-binary are trying to remove themselves from the limitations placed on them because they were born female. Feminists fight for the rights of all women.

But according to Stonewall and their massive 'trans umbrella' I think we are all trans.

You might find this thread useful.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?

TabbyStar · 18/02/2020 12:39

Trans women are more likely to be poor, abused, and killed than the average cis-woman or man

No evidence that transgender people are murdered at a higher rate than others https://fairplayforwomen.com/trans-murder-rates/

EmpressLangClegInChair · 18/02/2020 12:44

If anything the trans and non-binary movement is a way of helping women to liberate themselves from the patriarchal, essentialist views that yoke women to their biology. We should all be trans.

If anything the trans and non-binary movement is a way of reinforcing the patriarchal, essentialist views that yoke women to their biology by saying that if somebody doesn't match the stereotypes associated with a particular body, it's the body that must be in the wrong rather than the stereotypes.

Lordfrontpaw · 18/02/2020 12:49

Pip Bunce seems to be doing rather well on his 'female' days.

Also - The Ongar in Canada is doing ok. The US cyclist, the Dutch cyclist, the NZ weight lifter, the Australian footie player, fair chunk of the Iranian womans football team, oh the UK cricketer, loads of school sprinters in the US, chinese relay team (not all of them).Not forgetting Jenner too - a 'woman of the year' no less! And there have been several in the UK who have been promoted waaaay above their talent range in politics/nhs/'journalism'/student groups, also as spokespeople for women's issues, at womens events and womens film festivals, etc. So often crowned the female athlete of the year, woman of the year, even prom queen... so many accolades,

So who is the most discriminated group again?

SophocIestheFox · 18/02/2020 12:56

Do you feel better for getting that off your chest, lily? Grin

OnlyTheTitOfTheLangBerg · 18/02/2020 13:01

Trans women are more likely to be poor, abused, and killed than the average cis-woman or man

Only if you're a transwomen working as a prostitute in South America.
Otherwise - no.

R0wantrees · 18/02/2020 13:18

As a scholar of art and literature I can assure you that the organisation of the genders into male and female has been called into question for at least a century in the west. If anything the trans and non-binary movement is a way of helping women to liberate themselves from the patriarchal, essentialist views that yoke women to their biology

Ive long being fascinated by what follows in the posts of those who lead with a claim to expertise.
This article by M K Fain is important reading for younger women interested in feminism, those who identify themselves as non-binary, cis or trans.

'Non-Binary Is the New “Not Like Other Girls,” and it’s Deeply Rooted in Misogyny'
(extract)
In the summer of 2018 I lived in a house with 3 other women. We spent a lot of time together that year, and there were many late-night conversations about the sexism, misogyny, and male violence we had experienced. We talked about not fitting into what society had expected of women, we stopped shaving together, and we encouraged each other to not be ashamed of our natural bodies. We called rape crisis lines, organized protests, and exposed violent men in our communities. Mitali shaved her head in a defiant act of rebellion against Indian expectations of beauty. Joy became empowered to use her voice to speak up for the oppressed. Miriam started to confront her religious parents and come to terms with her sexuality. The four of us dreamt of what a feminist world could look like and envisioned our lives free from patriarchy and violence.

Now, one year later, all three of them identify as “non-binary” — no longer a woman." (continues)

concludes:
Non-binary women are a testament to the great pain of being a woman, and the desperate need many of us have to find an escape. At the same time, women who claim to be non-binary throw all other women and girls under the bus. The claim that we are privileged for identifying with the sex “assigned to us at birth” misses the inherent violence in being a female under patriarchy. In some countries, 70% of women have experienced sexual or physical violence from an intimate partner. 137 women are killed every day by a member of their own family. At least 200 million women and girls alive today have experienced genital mutilation, mostly before the age of five. This is why feminists argue for sex-based rights for women and girls.

Those who are the most non-conforming, no matter how they identify, will face oppression for transgressing social norms. Women are especially likely to be targeted for violence and discrimination based on gender non-conformity. This is true regardless of how the woman identifies, since the attacker can not know the internal “gender identity” of the woman before the prejudice occurs.

The uncomfortable truth is this: saying you are “not like other girls” is not an identity, it’s misogyny. Non-binary-identifying women like to claim an extra degree of oppression over women who they call “cis,” a term which implies that certain women are complicit in their own oppression. But we are not privileged for maintaining an understanding of the basis of our oppression; you are privileged if you believe you can escape it."
medium.com/4th-wave-feminism/non-binary-is-the-new-not-like-other-girls-and-its-deeply-rooted-in-misogyny-7a7e5ec539ba

sanluca · 18/02/2020 13:34

Why the actual fuck, if you'll pardon my french, would someone sitting on the mountain of privilege that is masculinity want to become a woman - it's such a social demotion for all intents and purposes

So being a woman is less than a man so why would a man ever demean themselves to 'become a woman'. Omfg, you are upholding the patriarchy right there. Being a woman is not lesser than a man and the fact that society views it that way is the very thing feminists fight against. You on the other hand are enforcing this by talking about the poor transwoman who has stooped so low.

womaninblue · 18/02/2020 13:49

lilybriscoe, you're no scholar if you don't understand that sex and gender are two different things.

2BthatUnnoticed · 18/02/2020 13:54

I’ve no issue with her calling her child “the kid” if she wants .. she wants to be anon, I guess.

I don’t share her views but she seems a hardworking Single mother of a toddler and j can respect her for that

AbsintheFriends · 18/02/2020 14:05

Why the actual fuck, if you'll pardon my french, would someone sitting on the mountain of privilege that is masculinity want to become a woman

I don't actually believe that you really can't fathom the answer to this, lily, but just in case your scholarly pursuits have distracted you from the grittier side of life I'll spell it out.

S - E - X - U - A - L - F - E -T - I - S - H

Datun · 18/02/2020 14:33

would someone sitting on the mountain of privilege that is masculinity want to become a woman - it's such a social demotion for all intents and purposes - unless they truly identified with being one?

What on earth makes you think that it's not a direct result of male privilege?!!

How are these men who identify as women, getting women arrested for stating facts, whistling up their own police force to check someone's 'thinking'??? Getting women thrown out for sitting on chairs? Getting women relentlessly no platformed? Frightening Millwall football club (everyone hates us but we don't care), into no platforming women, getting men to take medals for women, taking woman's places in sports teams, taking women scholarships in America, being able to ask 10-year-olds if they want help with inserting their tampons and still being given the credibility to launch an equality tribunal against 16 sikh women for not touching their scrotum? For being able to wear a dress three days a week and take a women in business award? Being a self confessed, convicted sex offender but demand to be imprisoned with women and then assaulting them?

To rape a teenage girl five times and have the potential leader of the opposition claim that you get to choose how your crime is recorded and you get to access incarcerated, vulnerable women as part of your sentence?

Meanwhile, please tell me, please fucking tell me, what all the women who identify as men are doing with their newly acquired male privilege???? Go on. Just one fucking example.

The only way any of this is happening it's because of the leverage of male privilege.

Aided and abetted by self loathing, misogynistic women falling over themselves to assist.

GivesNoFox · 18/02/2020 14:52

There was another new user on another thread on here a while back who used the same "I'm looking after my sick child at home so I have a bit of free time to pop on here and school you women-folk on why you're wrong to be concerned about TRA's" schtick. I don't doubt that there are handmaiden types that actually have ill children to look after but this seems to be a bit of a repetitive script that keeps being used as well.

In any case this cements my earlier suspicion that the newbie troll's are connected/ 'allies' of the bookshop and keep resurrecting a 4 month old tread for attention.

Lordfrontpaw · 18/02/2020 15:11

Well it’s half term for many.

Languishingfemale · 18/02/2020 15:17

They'll now be busy icing cakes (for those with long memories of FWR) Grin

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 18/02/2020 15:21

They'll now be busy icing cakes

Of course they will. Grin

MrsSnippyPants · 18/02/2020 16:08

I have noticed (as I am sure others have) that many of the new posters who come onto the FWR board to tell us how to woman properly often have 'mummy' as part of their user name.

Wonder if that is something they think will make them more believable?
Just an idle thought I had.

Lordfrontpaw · 18/02/2020 16:20

And they always have joined to learn how to make jam to take the guinea pigs temperature - but are shocked - shocked I tell you - at the downright despicableness on here and feel it their moral duty to say do (before arguing, having a meme spat, getting abusive, taking a few screenshots then announcing 'haha I fooled ya, ya bunch of UGLY OLD OLD HAGS!')

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