Second Shelf London

[lionheart]

Anyone been watching this drama played out on the Twitter?

jaded millennial
@MillennialJaded

'A women’s bookshop I was interested in visiting is now openly ‘anti terf’ & they publically shamed someone they were following for tweeting an article on sport & trans. FFS this climate is chilling',

A little snippet from the shop itself (one of many on the issue):

'The Second Shelf
@secondshelfbks
·
19h

'We want to be clear, we are uninterested in the transexclusionary feminist position! We understand there is discomfort w/ the acronym TERF. But this seems to be because the negative connotations don’t sit well with the position holder? Maybe it’s evidence of a terrible stance?'

Everyone being given dignity and respect but excluding trans people from that is not giving dignity and respect to ALL. I’m fkn 20, I should not have to be telling grown adults that what’s in people’s pants does not effect how you should treat them. Female/male = sex, gender is a social construct around a set of apparent features. if you class a gender ie woman by a function of its sex ie reproductive capabilities then you exclude women who have hysterectomies, are infertile or who don’t have the physical parts ect ect 💖💫 I’m not here to start a war, but transgenderism has always existed and is only going to become more prominent once it is publicly acknowledged, gay people have always existed but became more prominent after if wasn’t illegal to be gay- same shit but social stigma over legal issues

Well, what’s a mother? How are you defining a gay person OP? What’s a lesbian?

I don’t understand how woke tramples on women of religious minorities or disabled women OR how the second shelf does so in the books they sell?? They sell books by women of colour, disabled women ect AND are an accessible bookshop for wheelchair ect

You haven’t answered my questions, yet.

Sexual identity ect is something that is harder to define. As someone who is not a trans person or a lesbian, I am not the oracle on it all BUT I would class lesbianism as a women (person who identifies as such) having attraction to another woman regardless of the genitals involved. As for a mother- what is your definition?? Do they have to have physically passed the child to be a mother?? Caitlin Jenner goes by dad to her children because that is what they knew her as and she is comfortable with that. A mother (to me) is anyone who identifies with the female pronouns and has a child who they care for 😊

If you class lesbianism as an attraction to vaginas or relate all motherhood to it then you have a hyper focus on genitalia plus are excluding those who adopt or become step mothers in your definition of mothers x

Now you’re just being silly. If someone doesn’t care if the person they’re having sex with, is of male or female sex, then what defines same sex attraction or what defines a bi sexual? Are you then saying that females who are only attracted to those with vaginas, bigots?

I guarantee, from the nonsense that you’re spouting, that you’re not a mother in ANY sense.

You’re taking a major swerve here. As I said I am straight and cis so can only define my understanding, to me, lesbianism is to the PERSON and the gender roles ect they take on not the genitals. You wouldn’t say lesbians who use strap ons or dildos are straight because of the penis factor. I know trans-men who are gay and in relationships with men and would class as a homosexual relationship because it is two MEN in said relationship regardless on the gentials, the policing of people’s genitals when it comes to identity or book selling or anything is fkn WILD

Motherhood=/ acceptance of trans rights 💫💫 if you’re afraid of predators then fair but trans women ARE NOT men pretending to me women to get close to kids. Anyone doing so is a predator

Do you realise how homophobic your comments are to actual lesbians, OP? Why are you up at 4am making yourself look foolish, by your lack of knowledge? Are you aware that males who identify as trans, commit violent and sexual crimes at the same rate as males who accept that they are men? Why do you think we have sex segregated spaces, OP? If you are of the opinion that a make calling themselves trans, somehow entitles them to enter female spaces and their penis and scrotum is of no importance, why don’t we let ALL males enter female spaces?

BTW, thanks for bumping this thread, I wouldn’t have noticed it, otherwise. I must remember to bump it for the morning Mumsnetters.

Are you an “actual lesbian” able to comment on this?? Gay rights and gay pride was started by a gay trans man so go wild there. I’m 100% sure I have more research and understanding into the trans community than a transphob on a thread about being transphobic so that’s a moot point. Do you have any stats to back that wild accusation up?? PENIS DOES NOT EQUAL MALE JFC. There is a MASSIVE difference between a trans women who identifies as female and a male who identifies as a man. Trans women are not cutting about bathrooms or changing rooms or any other “female space” youre referring to swinging their dick about. Violence against and suicide amongst the trans community is high. you aren’t willing to accept, even for the basis of discussion, that people can have w different sex than their presenter gender then you’re deliberately not doing to understand anything I say. Science supports that, history supports that, I just hope that none of your children come out as trans or even gay because they clearly have a mother who is so ignorant to the whole community that she is not going to fully support them

Fkn welcome morning mumsnetters 💫💫 do some non biased research nd have a long think about how anyone’s gender identity effects you IN ANY WAY before you start spouting pish xo I’m fully expecting my account to be gone by tomorrow morning but that does not mean in anyway that you are right or that you are validated. I have no clue the “mumsnet rules” but I’m sure I’ve said fk more times than is appropriate so report away. You’re still transphobic whether you want to recognise and change or not, bottom line is gender and sex are two different things. Policing female spaces based on genitals is transphobic and the vast majority of trans people, male or female, fear for their safety and just want to pass in peace xo

if you class a gender ie woman by a function of its sex ie reproductive capabilities then you exclude women who have hysterectomies, are infertile or who don’t have the physical parts ect ect

Nobody is doing that. A grasshopper with five legs is still an insect. Just as a man (biological sex) who is feminine (socially ascribed gender stereotype) is still a man.

FWIW, I believe that people should be able to wear what they like, call themselves by whichever name they choose etc. etc.. That is because I don't think we should be constrained by gender stereotypes. That does not mean that I must participate in magical thinking.

You’re half way there!!! You’ve almost accepted that gender is a social construct! Believing someone can “call themselves by whichever name they chose” is very nearly close to “whatever gender identity they choose”

Stormé DeLarverie, a Black biracial butch lesbian and drag king, was actually the person that physically fought back and helped start the Stonewall riots and there was NO mention of a male who identifies as trans until recent years. The history of lesbian involvement in and support of gay rights is being practically eradicated by the TRAs, but as usual, their supporters will swallow any nonsense, hook line a land sinker, in order to appear forward thinking.

Violence against and suicide amongst the trans community is high.
More males who identify as trans have committed murder, in the UK, than have been murdered. 2-3 women a week are murdered. The suicide states often bandied about was not actually a recognised peer reviewed study, but was self selecting and whittled down by various methods to a total of 27 people!

Science supports that, history supports that,
Please show me the peer reviewed scientific study that states people can change sex?

Can you also stop equating trans with homosexuality? The two are completely different. Homosexuality is about sexual attraction, whereas trans is about how a person identifies into a stereotypical ‘gender’. For someone who pertains to know so much, can you at lest learn the difference between sex and gender?

I think you’re actually confusing yourself, now. You have t actually succeeded in doing anything but provided evidence of how little you know.

Yep, sex is the biological bits ie the genitals, internal bits but gender is the presentation and is a social construct. I’ll pop back with my own links and research tomorrow because quite frankly it’s 5am nd I’ve over your transphobic shit but to end, re the trans erasing lesbianism- it’s LGBTQ for a fkn reason and any pride which does not include trans people isnt pride, it’s transphobic xox much love, goodnight ect xoxo

The LGB community welcomed transsexual under their umbrella, because they needed support, but even the transsexuals are now considered transphobic, By the TRAs, because they recognise that they are still the else’s they were born as. You really are a silly wee thing.

...are still the *sex they were born as.

Female/male = sex, gender is a social construct around a set of apparent features. if you class a gender ie woman by a function of its sex ie reproductive capabilities then you exclude women who have hysterectomies, are infertile or who don’t have the physical parts ect ect

First of all, what are these apparent features that make up the gender of ‘woman’?

Secondly, to be female means to be of the sex that can bear offspring or produce large gametes (eggs) fertilised by male gametes (sperm). The fact that developmental problems or pathology means that a particular individual doesn’t have all the anatomical parts, doesn’t have functioning anatomical parts or has had their anatomical parts removed doesn’t mean they are no longer a member of the female sex. After all, she clearly doesn’t have any of the features of a male reproductive system.

Humans have two arms and two legs but some people aren’t born with two of each. My sister’s childhood friend was born with only one and a half arms. She is still human despite the developmental issue. She isn’t an alien creature. She has a multitude of human features and is the offspring of a human woman. We can say conclusively that she is human. Likewise the malfunctioning of one part of a female reproductive system doesn’t mean we can’t identify a woman as a woman and distinct from a male who has all or many of the features of a male including a male reproductive system.

Thirdly, when you lecture people, your sense of authority is reduced when your language is riddled with basic errors. People will take you more seriously if know how the difference between the words effect and affect. Also, etc. is the correct shortened form of the Latin word et cetera, not ect, which is something quite different.

Before someone else corrects me, I realise et cetera is a phrase not a word as I said in my previous post.