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Original poster

Famous men and surrogacy

660 replies

Annasgirl · 04/10/2019 10:43

OK, so this is not to bash the specific person involved but last night I was heading to bed and a story came up on my phone - a person from Westlife was announcing the birth of their baby - through surrogacy (he is gay) and showed a pic of him, his boyfriend and the baby - there was no mother.

So, I totally lost it and poor DH had to listen to me rant for about an hour - but when, oh God, when, are we going to stand up and be counted and take back the rights of women and children?????

DH mentioned that there will always be women poor enough to agree to do this and I countered that you cannot sell a kidney (legally) or buy one so why should you be able to buy or sell a baby???????

BTW, DH agrees with me, but why do I feel I am the only person alive who is angry about this?

And I live in Wokesville (AKA Ireland) and I am worried that we are so keen to be woke and the most liberal place to be gay in the world, that we will soon legalise surrogacy or at least make it easy for people to legally buy a baby overseas and then take it home here. That is what the person was arguing for on his gushing post.

OP posts:
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mypuddin · 09/10/2019 15:56

My personal opinion is that surrogacy should be legal but that the legislation should be written to try and prevent abuse of women (surrogates) . So that people can go into surrogacy if they are not being taken advantage of, and clear contracts and boundaries would be part of that. I'm not professing to be an expert on what the current law is, but whatever it is I wouldn't advocate breaking it. However if it currently is not fit for purpose, ie. women can be paid huge lumps of money (which could mean vulnerable women might do it for that purpose or women could be trafficked for that purpose) then I would say that law needs amending. As far as I'm aware, in the uk you can't be paid more than reasonable expenses, which I think is a good thing.

Taxtaxtax · 09/10/2019 15:57

It’s an open forum Hmm

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 09/10/2019 16:01

My personal opinion is that surrogacy should be legal but that the legislation should be written to try and prevent abuse of women (surrogates)

What about the interests of the baby?

Should they have a right to know whose egg and sperm and body created them for example?

In the case of the judgement I linked to, the child had health issues and the lack of knowledge about the egg donor was hampering his diagnosis and treatment. How would you guard the rights and interests of the child in that situation?

TruthOnTrial · 09/10/2019 16:07

Over with you tax
The talk of it not being best for the child... does your opinion change if it’s not two men?

What an awful thing to say. Gross!

mypuddin · 09/10/2019 16:10

@BernardBlacksWineIceLolly if we're opening up a conversation about the interests of the baby.. well there are thousands of people who have babies every year that don't seem to consider the interests of the baby.. but because they can physically carry a baby and give birth that's ok then?

OhHolyJesus · 09/10/2019 16:16

Mypuddin isn't that why we have social services? When a child is at risk or harm they intervene. It's not a perfect system, I don't think any social worker would say it was, but it's the best we have right now.

You're conflating two issues. This is surrogacy not parenting.

Maybe we should focus on fostering and adopting the children who are removed from their parents because they care for them so badly (or don't care at all) and maybe these intended parents could provide them with loving homes and not have to create more lives when there are so many already needing care.

Having the right biology / fertility doesn't make someone a good parent anymore than not having it makes the a bad parent.

mypuddin · 09/10/2019 16:21

@OhHolyJesus why is it up to infertile people to regime children that have had to be removed from homes because of bad parents and situations? I've never heard of a pregnant person being asked why they got pregnant and didn't choose to adopt instead.

mypuddin · 09/10/2019 16:21
  • re-home .. autocorrect
imclaustrophobicdarren · 09/10/2019 16:26

@IcedPurple yep I'll ask her just that Hmm

OhHolyJesus · 09/10/2019 16:28

I'm afraid I have. She now has 6 kids, all of them have been removed and she's pregnant with her 7th. Only one of them loves with the father and his parents. (They have different fathers).

She was adopted and has a lot of problems. She is ok the watch list for social services due to neglect and abuse.

No one can stop her getting pregnant, except perhaps the men who could refuse to have sex with her or insist on wearing condoms (yea right). She would not be able to get a sperm donor for example, but she could keep producing children and not care of any of them but she has been asked to stop more than once. It does happen.

OhHolyJesus · 09/10/2019 16:31

Sorry mypuddin I completely misunderstood your post.

I know a fertile couple who adopted. They worked in the charity sector in Africa and adopted from the country they lived in. They saw how they could help and they did. They have different skin so they get the question around their reason for adoption, everyone assumes they are infertile.

user1479988301 · 09/10/2019 16:47

Name changed for this. I think it's really unfair to criticise mark and his partner for using a surrogate to have a much wanted baby.

Would you be as critical of a woman getting pregnant purposely by a man she didn't want a relationship with? That happens too.

The poster who said they created an orphan. Total bullshit. Mark is her biological father. She is his daughter. That little will be loved, so loved, she is so wanted.

They did not force her mother to be their surrogate. Leave them alone and let them enjoy their beautiful little girl. It's none of any of your business. They were sharing their joy at the birth of their little girl. How miserable are you lot slagging them off for it.

*I do not know either of them personally that's just what I think.

mypuddin · 09/10/2019 16:49

We have a similar scenario in our family re my white uncle lived in Africa with his black African wife. They adopted his wife's sisters child due to some circumstances which meant the sister couldn't cope with the child. They moved to the uk, but after a few years separated. Black child stayed in uk with our white family, lots of people pre judge how/why she is part of our family.

I have great admiration for people who choose to adopt because it is a very difficult process. And not just about having a child, it's a lifetime of social services and risknof the biological family trying to get back involved. It's not a 'plug a baby gap hole' solution for infertile people. People biologically have a want for a biological child, that's why people generally have children without even giving a thought to adopting instead of TTC. In certain circumstances, with the help of a willing surrogate, these child can have families who want and love them. For these gay father in the OP, they have a biological child.

pallisers · 09/10/2019 16:59

People biologically have a want for a biological child

That cuts both ways. People biologically have a want to know their biological parents. At the least, I hope all these surrogacies ensure that the children can know the mother who donated the egg and the mother who gestated them. Otherwise respect for that biological need goes only one way.

IcedPurple · 09/10/2019 17:00

People biologically have a want for a biological child

We all have all sorts of 'wants'. That doesn't mean those 'wants' should be fulfilled at any cost.

For these gay father in the OP, they have a biological child.

Well, one of them does I guess. But so what? Do the selfish desires of rich men override all other concerns?

LangCleg · 09/10/2019 17:01

and as for the choosy choice argument (how fucking neo liberal can you get by the way?)

Quite! It's utterly staggering to see the political illiteracy of commenters arriving here and saying the place looks like a Daily Mail comment section - completely failing to understand that creating a market place for babies is as right wing, neoliberal and Thatcherite as it gets.

There is nothing progressive about surrogacy.

IcedPurple · 09/10/2019 17:08

OK. So what's the very worst case scenario if we outlaw surrogacy entirely? A small number of couples or individuals will not get to have 'their own' baby. That's sad for them, obviously, but nobody is guaranteed to get everything they want from life, certainly not at the expense of others.

By contrast, permitting surrogacy - certainly commerical surrogacy - opens the door to all sorts of deeply troubling scenarios for the surrogate and, more importantly, the baby. Not to mention the broader effects on society of the commofification of human life. So on balance, it seems obvious to me that surrogacy in all its forms should be outlawed. A no-brainer, as the Americans like to say.

OhHolyJesus · 09/10/2019 17:12

This biological need for a baby doesn't ride with me. Not everyone wants kids, it's a social or emotional thing not a biological thing, clearly it isn't as some people can't as they are infertile and some people can't as they are on same sex couples.

This thing about wanting a child biologically related to you is also BS. If you want to be a parent you have a hole in your life, you have a need to love and care for a child. That is a social need or emotional need, not biological.

If you feel those things it shouldn't matter whether that child looks like you or not. I love that my son looks a lot like me, would I love him less if he didn't? Of course not. Having a child in your life in any form is (mostly) a blessing. Is it a right? Absolutely not.

As I continue with this thread I am reminded of the hoops adoptive parents jump through, they want to be parents so badly, the assessments, the paperwork, the adjustment and the lifetime of parenting a child who came from somewhere else.

With adoption you are not buying a child which was made in your image for your own selfish needs, you are selflessly loving a child who has been failed elsewhere.

Fieldofgreycorn · 09/10/2019 17:12

The subtext here is: how do you weigh up the needs of a childless person with the needs of a baby?

What will lead to the most suffering: a woman left childless for life, or a baby that doesn’t have the absolute optimal experience but still has a ‘good enough’ experience?

IcedPurple · 09/10/2019 17:15

The subtext here is: how do you weigh up the needs of a childless person with the needs of a baby?

Nobody 'needs' a baby. Absolutely nobody.

I think we need to get away from this notion that being involuntarily childless is some terrible calamity that can and should be fixed at almost any cost.

IcedPurple · 09/10/2019 17:17

What will lead to the most suffering: a woman left childless for life, or a baby that doesn’t have the absolute optimal experience but still has a ‘good enough’ experience?

In all scenarios where the 'needs' (in this case 'wants') of adults are at variance with the needs of children, the latter take absolute priority. Why should surrogacy be an exception?

TruthOnTrial · 09/10/2019 17:17

So many sadly don't care about the well-being of babies.

Its horrific. So long as people get what they want huh.

Simplistic and not complex atall.Hmm

OrchidInTheSun · 09/10/2019 17:18

No one has a right to a child.

TruthOnTrial · 09/10/2019 17:21

What will lead to the most suffering: a woman, like many who isnt able to have children.

or a baby thats deliberately damaged and traded as a commodity, cos you know, babies damaging experience/life should be a lower priority than someone's wants.

There you are, thats better reflects reality.

What a lot of disregard for human life.

Creepster · 09/10/2019 17:27

It is incredible to me that legalizing human trafficking is being considered by lawmakers.
In the news today:
A man who owns an "adoption agency" in the US was just arrested for trafficking 40 pregnant women into the US from the Marshall Islands and selling the babies for $40,000 each.