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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Famous men and surrogacy

660 replies

Annasgirl · 04/10/2019 10:43

OK, so this is not to bash the specific person involved but last night I was heading to bed and a story came up on my phone - a person from Westlife was announcing the birth of their baby - through surrogacy (he is gay) and showed a pic of him, his boyfriend and the baby - there was no mother.

So, I totally lost it and poor DH had to listen to me rant for about an hour - but when, oh God, when, are we going to stand up and be counted and take back the rights of women and children?????

DH mentioned that there will always be women poor enough to agree to do this and I countered that you cannot sell a kidney (legally) or buy one so why should you be able to buy or sell a baby???????

BTW, DH agrees with me, but why do I feel I am the only person alive who is angry about this?

And I live in Wokesville (AKA Ireland) and I am worried that we are so keen to be woke and the most liberal place to be gay in the world, that we will soon legalise surrogacy or at least make it easy for people to legally buy a baby overseas and then take it home here. That is what the person was arguing for on his gushing post.

OP posts:
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MrsJoshNavidi · 09/10/2019 06:53

Unfortunately, a side effect of being gay us being unable to have children with your partner.
I find the whole "ordering" a baby from a woman who is prepared to incubate and sell one unethical and immoral.
I'm more comfortable with adoption as a route to parenthood for gay men, but deliberately taking babies from their mothers (even if the mother isn't genetically linked to the baby) doesn't sit well with me.

ChickenNuggetsChipsAndBeans · 09/10/2019 07:42

One thing I know for sure that the adoption fairytales that play out in film and stories are not true.

I feel in the same way that a lot of the stories around surrogacy contain an element of fantasy and leave out the detail of the true complex emotions.

However, I feel that more research is needed in this area. Without research being completed, we don't really know if surrogacy and adoption is a fair comparison.

Particularly as adopted children tend to experience a whole load of other stuff such as drug and alcohol use whilst in the womb, neglect, violence etc.

whatnow123 · 09/10/2019 08:00

Why is the difference between abortion and surrogacy as regards to "My body, My Choice"

I'm pro choice but there is a conflict between the two positions.

JenniferM1989 · 09/10/2019 08:33

I think all of your 'anti surrogacy' views would be a lot different if it was you that couldn't have a biological child.

It's so easy for fertile people to sit on their high horses and condemn people that take alternative routes to be parents.

Are the majority of the people that are commenting here going to sit there and say this baby won't be loved? That some feckless junkie in a lot of cases is more entitled to have a baby because she is the biological mum? That this baby would have been better served getting skin on skin and breastfed by a woman that was happy to give her up?

The baby was not bought and sold, that's illegal. You are are only allowed to pay the mothers expenses for surrogacy here in the UK. Also, the woman wouldn't have been forced into this. She would have signed up to an agency of her own free will.

I think it's funny how if there's a post on here from a woman saying she's struggling to conceive, the replies are kind and sympathetic and even if it's not their first. But two men taking a route to be parents is so wrong isn't it? They should just stay childless to please all you people that don't even know the situation and dramatising it all by saying the baby was 'snatched' from the mother.

People needlessly bring babies into the world everyday that they can neither afford or care for. Where's all the outrage there? Oh I forgot, it's not feminist enough. The poor woman, she 'rented' her womb, this couple are monsters and so are all the other people that use surrogates.

This baby was planned, very much wanted and I assume will be well looked after by this couple, since they did go to lengths to be parents to this baby. Adoption is an option of course but they wanted to be parents to a child from birth and it's legal so what's the problem? I have never read that children from surrogacy are more prone to mental health issues or anything. That they'll suddenly fall ill due to not being breastfed or having skin to skin with their mother at birth.

What's really happening here is people speaking a lot of rubbish! Assumptions, dramatics and undertones of homophobia. A mother isn't the only important aspect for a baby or a child through it's life. This child will be with her biological father and fathers partner and depending on their agreement, she may well meet her birth mother later in life but that's neither here nor there right now, she's with a couple that wanted her and will look after her. A lot of kids are dragged up or abandoned by their fathers and mothers but a baby going to a loving home is an outrage.

Try to step away from your views that children only thrive with a mother around. There's a lot of situations where children are best kept away from their mothers

OhHolyJesus · 09/10/2019 08:34

Abortion saves a woman from becoming a mother when she doesn't want to be. It can save her from poverty, from developing in her own life, education, career, or protect her from a difficult pregnancy and impacts on her existing family. It also prevents a child from being born so that person doesn't need to grow up as an unwanted child.

Surrogacy brings a life into the word, a wanted child, but for it to be removed from the one source of food, comfort, love and life it knows. It denies the baby what it knows and could also lead to a life of gaslighting where he/she doesn't know his or her biological origins. (There's a bit in the consultation where a person born of a surrogate can find out on a register if he or she is related to their partner!)

Body autonomy is essential for women to be in control. Making truly autonomous decisions about your body when you are vulnerable, or being persuaded or paid becomes difficult and sometimes impossible.

The woman in the case I posted upthread was not listened to when she tried to assert body autonomy.

Abortion is there so we can maintain control, surrogacy could remove control. It depends on how it is done. Hence why the laws need to protect women, on both areas.

IcedPurple · 09/10/2019 08:45

I think all of your 'anti surrogacy' views would be a lot different if it was you that couldn't have a biological child.

And here we go again... making assumptions about the lives of complete strangers. How can you possibly know if the posters here have their own children? I don't - through choice. But that's irrelevant. Laws and ethics aren't decided by how much they benefit indiviuals in a particular situation. They are decided with a view as to how they might help or harm society in general. The selfish desires of individuals - and yes the desire to have 'your own' child is selfish, as most desires are - barely factor into that.

But two men taking a route to be parents is so wrong isn't it?

If it involves separating a newborn from its mother at birth then yes, it is.

People needlessly bring babies into the world everyday that they can neither afford or care for. Where's all the outrage there?

There's no 'outrage' because it's an entirely separate issue. If it bothers you so much, why not start a thread?

NotBadConsidering · 09/10/2019 09:02

I posted this on a thread a while back. I’d be grateful to those who are pro-surrogacy if they could tell me how they would address the conflict of rights in these scenarios. These are based on common things I see:

At 12 week prenatal testing it’s discovered the fetus has a severe abnormality. The surrogate wants to abort, should she be allowed to? What if the adoptive parents are religious and don’t want her to? What if the adoptive parents want to abort but the surrogate is religious and doesn’t want to? What if the pregnancy will threaten her life but the adoptive parents don’t want to abort? What if the adoptive parents decide that if she continues with a pregnancy resulting in a child with a severe abnormality they won’t have anything to do with it?

What if the pregnant woman has a major complication like a pulmonary embolism? What if she can’t return to full functioning afterwards? What if she can never work again as a result? What if she can’t look after her own family?

What if there is a conflict between parties about timing and mode of delivery? Who gets to decide? What if there’s a severe hypoxic ischaemic injury to the baby as a result of this decision? Is it anyone’s fault? Should a woman be forced to undertake a Caesarean section?

What if after a severe hypoxic ischaemic injury the adoptive parents decide they don’t want to look after a child with severe spastic quadraplegic cerebral palsy? Who does the baby belong to?

What if the pregnant woman developed gestational diabetes and didn’t look after herself? Ditto high blood pressure?

What if there’s an intrauterine fetal death? What if it’s discovered the pregnant woman smoked and drank? What if she ate something considered high risk? What if she undertook an activity deemed high risk? Should blame be apportioned? Could someone sue someone in this scenario?

What if, in the postnatal period, the birth mother develops severe postnatal depression or psychosis? Who looks after her? For how long? What if it stays with her for years?

What if the pregnant woman is group B strep positive? What if she doesn’t want antibiotics? What if she does but the adoptive parents don’t because they want everything natural? What if she’s given antibiotics and has an allergic reaction? What if she has a recurrence of previously unknown genital herpes? What if the baby has herpes encephalitis postnatally as a result? Is that her fault?

What if she develops antibodies to the fetus’s red blood cells or platelets? What if that results in invasive in utero procedures? What if she needs immunoglobulin as a result and has a reaction?

What if she has a severe postpartum haemorrhage? What if she needs a blood transfusion or two?

Basically, if harm results to the pregnant woman as a result of the pregnancy whose responsibility is that? Can the finances ever truly reconcile all eventualities? Can/should a pregnant woman be forced to undertake medical treatment if it’s in the best interests of a third party? What if what is in her best interests is not what is in the best interests of that third party?

Who pays for hospital parking? Who pays for petrol to get to appointments? Who attends appointments? What if there is another medical issue arises requiring confidentiality? Should a doctor disclose this information in front of adoptive parents present in an appointment? If adoptive parents are at appointments what pressure is there? Would the pregnant woman be able to openly disclose concerns? What if a doctor or midwife suspected there was coercion? Who would they report that to? What’s the burden of proof for coercion? How would the legal system address this quickly with an advancing pregnancy?

Thanks in advance.

StroppyWoman · 09/10/2019 09:11

All important questions, NotBad

OhHolyJesus · 09/10/2019 09:24

Can I nick all that @NotBadConsidering ? I've got more follow ups to do and that was detailed and yet concise.

I think in answer to one of the questions the cap for post-partum issues is £1k but I'm going to try to find other cases on this, I'll share what I find. I'm not sure if that cover mental health issues.

We need a family lawyer with medical experience to come and answer all those questions, maybe a surrogate can share some details of their contract to help too?

This has been shared before but for those interested it covers some of the issues relating to NotBad's questions.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0005f2x

TruthOnTrial · 09/10/2019 09:39

What a lot of rot still

think all of your 'anti surrogacy' views would be a lot different if it was you that couldn't have a biological child.

How preposterous is this!!

Ignore harms to baby, I WANT A BABY, I AM ENTITLED TO A BABY

If I cant have one i am entilito rent a womb and rip that baby from its mother, witj fkagrant disregard for the harms the baby suffers.

Adoption and surrogacy are told different things. God good! No similarity at all!

In America there are forced adoptions perpetrated upon young women and girls.

There are underage marriages, or rather a girl can be married at any age in many states to avoid a perpetrator being charged with rape.

Adoption is their way of refusing women's rights to abortion.

If you are fighting for surrogacy you are promoting harm to babies, permanent harm.

You are placing the needs of the childless above the rights of a baby. Sick.

TruthOnTrial · 09/10/2019 09:40

*totally different things

Lessthanzero · 09/10/2019 09:41

I'm only up to page 12 but just wanted to say,

Pro surrogacy advocates always seem to be men or childless woman who don't understand or willfully ignore the primal bond between baby and mother (not saying all men and childless women don't believe this). Women who have had children and are pro surrogacy seem to perform mental gymnastics to try and justify surrogacy. I guess this is how they manage to give up their child. They seem to equate gestating a baby to a bird sitting on a egg. Man's role in conception is gammet supply and so to them they feel the egg donor is the mother, as this is the same as their role. Again denying the role of the mother.

At the risk of offending, it must take a strange type of woman who wants to give up a baby she has gestated through anything other than pressure or desperation. What happened to you that you are that desperate to please that you'll give away your fucking baby!

NotBadConsidering · 09/10/2019 09:42

Be my guest OhHolyJesus. If anyone can come up with a legal framework that addresses such scenarios I’ll be open to reconsidering my opinion. Ditto any posters who can address these questions.

BarbaraStrozzi · 09/10/2019 09:43

I think that "1000 cap" was only in the ridiculous fake contract case referenced up thread. The commissioning parents had it written into their fake (and illegal and unenforceable) contract which they downloaded from an American website and coerced a woman with learning disabilities into signing. The judge referenced it not as a suggestion that the cap was in any way lawful, but rather in order to highlight what an utter pair of shots the CPs were (the judge didn't of course say this in so many words but it's pretty clear from the judgement that this is what he thought).

BarbaraStrozzi · 09/10/2019 09:45

Utter pair of shits.

(My phone bowdlerises everything. I suspect it sneaks around putting frilly covers on the piano legs when I'm not looking.)

TruthOnTrial · 09/10/2019 09:50

Try to step away from your views that children only thrive with a mother around. There's a lot of situations where children are best kept away from their mothers

Nobody is saying a lot of what you are asserting.

You are trying to assert homophobia. Rubbishing research, making wild assumptions.

You can do all the derogatory and accusatory speak you like, it doesn't alter facts thats babies suffer permanent harm being removed from mothers.

The only case for removing a baby from its birth mother is, as you point out, serious harm or risk of.

Whilst we're on that subject its men that pose the greatest risk, by far and away. So again, you lose credibility.

I am not getting any reasonable stance from anything you say. Just some nastiness really.

Your agenda?

TruthOnTrial · 09/10/2019 09:51

End baby trade

TruthOnTrial · 09/10/2019 09:52

This isn't a legal argument its a human right of a baby.

Do no harm (even if you doooo want it reeeallly badly)

Tyrotoxicity · 09/10/2019 09:56

Why is the difference between abortion and surrogacy as regards to "My body, My Choice"

Because a lot of the ethical issues around surrogacy come into play once a baby has actually been born. Once it's born, a baby has legal personhood and rights of its own. Note that the right to abort doesn't extend to the right to murder newborns.

fox61524 · 09/10/2019 10:00

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TruthOnTrial · 09/10/2019 10:03

What obvious thing are you missing about this fox??

HavelockVetinari · 09/10/2019 10:04

@JenniferM1989 I'm infertile. I have struggled through 6 rounds of IVF, about to embark on a 7th. I have had 4 miscarriages, the latest of which was last week, and spent well over £30k on fertility treatment.

I STILL don't think surrogacy is morally acceptable. No one has a right to have children.

So fuck off with your "you don't understand what it's like" bollocks - I know EXACTLY what it's like, which is utterly, miserably shit.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 09/10/2019 10:05

If it isn't, then it should be regulated to protect vulnerable adults from exploitation and understood to be another way of having a family (alongside egg and sperm donation, adoption, and fostering)

Buying and selling people is never OK

Quite aside from any other issues, this should be self evident for fucks sake

Even if someone is really, really rich, and really, really sad that they can’t have a person of their very own, it’s still not OK for them to buy one

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 09/10/2019 10:11

Xpost with HavelockVetinari

Flowers I hope things work out for you

fox61524 · 09/10/2019 10:12

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