They them pronouns

[Yeahnahyeah]

So I just watched a you tube video by a non binary blue haired person who was reporting on her pride parade experience. This person uses they/them pronouns.

They spent well over ten minutes complaning that wherever they went that day (watching the parade, coffee, meeting friends) sooo many people did not use the correct they/them pronouns; it was constant, and offensive, etc etc.

The thing is, I only very rarely hear my pronouns used. (She/her ). I find it hard to believe this person heard them so many times over a few hours, so I'm calling it out.

How often do you hear your pronouns on an average day?

And I feel really stupid and a bit resentful that I have had to use 'they' throughout this post, or do the rules on here not extend to they/them?

Lady is the female equivalent of Sir surely?

My mum, my aunt, my paternal grandmother were all teachers.

Anyone calling them Lady would have been taking their life in their hands. None of them had a problem with Miss.

I just don’t like the fact that it’s legitimate for the outside world to continuously ask me whether or not I am married

Yes, it's annoying, but in the grand scheme of things there are far more pressing concerns and issues. Certainly for me.

If it makes you feel any better pota, the kids quite often get miss and sir mixed up, both ways round.

Lady is the female equivalent of Sir surely?

Not in everyday plebeian life. It is 'Sir' and 'Madam'.

Anyone calling them Lady would have been taking their life in their hands. None of them had a problem with Miss

'Madam' was seen, by the headteacher, as a mark of respect, and one of equality with the use of ' Sir' for the male staff.

also angry about the fact that female teachers are Miss, a term used for a young girl and probably reflective of the fact that married women were not allowed to be teachers in the past. Whereas male teachers are Sir, a term of reverence and respect. I think language does matter. Things like this reinforce women’s low status continuously.

Yes. My GM was a teacher at the start of WWI. When she married, the normal expectation was that she would stop working. As the war had caused a shortage of teachers, her school board agreed to her continuing - but were surprised when she insisted that they continued to pay her!
DM stopped teaching either when she married or was expecting my eldest brother in the 50s. Things had changed by the time I was 5 in the 60s, though she was criticised by some for returning to work. Her salary as a primary teacher was a lot lower than DF who was a 'schoolmaster'.

'Housewife' wasn't a derogatory term at the time - it was the normal, socially approved term for most mothers.

all three titles Miss, Mrs and Ms are short forms of Mistress

Yes, that's why I genuinely would prefer mistress if I must have a title. Still don't see the point of titles though.

Can't say as I'm bothered enough to be campaigning/complaining on the matter, mind. Life's too short.

My rage is also triggered by being told to ‘chill out’.... I think a lot of feminists over the decades and centuries have been told that and I am grateful that most of them haven’t listened.

I remember being told to get a grip by my friend who wanted to have the traditional ‘obey’ vows at her wedding when I said that I wouldn’t personally dream of it. But it’s all these little things added together which are ‘not a big deal’ and we should just relax and get over them that actually stop us from achieving equality.

Apologies for the derail. But it will be a happy day when we either abolish titles full stop or have equality- one title for men and one, not three, for women. Might seem like a small thing but it adds up.

Just thought of this: the only person whom I really regularly hear refer to me in 3rd person would be my PA. She and I share an office and for rather obvious reasons a lot of her job would include talking about me ("no, IfYouSaySo can't accept this invitation, I'm afraid, she is otherwise engaged", that sort of thing).

Having thought about it: the cheeky mare has never actually asked me my pronouns and has been assuming my gender since starting this job.

My rage is also triggered by being told to ‘chill out’.... I think a lot of feminists over the decades and centuries have been told that and I am grateful that most of them haven’t listened

Obviously you are triggered by lots of things.

My point was that as we grow older and more experienced we mostly tend to let go of the things that are not worth the fight. Anger about injustice can still be channeled into fighting for change and improvement in society, but being 'precious' about every little 'mis -labelling' etc is, ultimately, a wase of energy.

cheeky mare

And you just assumed theirs. Maybe your PA is a colt, or a stallion, or a gelding.

Just re ‘more pressing things* you need basic equality in order to address these more pressing things. It seems like a little thing but every time it happens, the message is sent out that the most important thing about a woman’s status is whether or not she is married whereas it makes no difference for a man.

And I have had exchanges like ‘ooh, you surprise me, I thought you would be married’ and ‘Ms? Are you one of those feminist types?’ and ‘let me guess’. Often from men. Invites sexism by the bucketload.

I agree with Arnold that they should be abolished. If not, at least have equality.

My rage is also triggered by being told to ‘chill out’.... I think a lot of feminists over the decades and centuries have been told that and I am grateful that most of them haven’t listened.

I don't really do 'rage'... However, I first saw the point of feminism when I realised that whether I was personally affected by something or not wasn't very important. 'I'm all right, Jill' doesn't really cut it.

And if societies had to always fix big issues before small ones we'd never get anywhere.

Fair point. I've also been referring to her as a "she".

Hope she/he/they/pony is fine with it.

(In actual fact one of the things that makes her bloody brilliant is her zero tolerance for bullshit )

Errol yeah maybe rage is an exaggeration. I am extremely chilled out and mild-mannered in real life. But I do feel deep anger at how women have always (and are still) been second class citizens. Yes, to someone like Just, a title is nothing to be concerned about. At the same time, it gives a legitimate channel for sexist behaviour for anyone who wants to use it. It can also be used abusively eg when I have specifically asked not to referred to as Miss, people have deliberately done so, but as it’s seen as so ‘innocuous’, I haven’t felt able to make a fuss about it. (I never use my academic title outside work, so I am not one of those people insisting on being called Dr but asking to be called Ms sometimes triggers a reaction from some people and they take pleasure in refusing to call you that ‘by mistake’)

The only person who was funny with me correcting my title to "Ms" was about 25 years ago. It was wrong on my hospital records. The receptionist replied "it's been good enough for me for 42 years". Great, for her, but Miss wasn't my title.

Just thinking it through. As feminists we definitely discuss and frequently have strong opinions about what words are used to describe us.

Why do I think it is okay to not respect someone's pronouns?

It's not that I want to upset people or be outright rude to them. I think it's because using "he" for a girl is suggesting to others that I agree that it's possible to change sex. I can't use this language without appearing to agree with it.

Using requested pronouns involves buying in to an ideology that I disagree with.

Incidentally pota, I do agree with you on the Miss/Sir issue in schools. It's just one battle that I have decided to not have.

testing I agree (although due to my job, I have to use preferred pronouns if I wish to keep it). But it feels that if I accept that a person is non-binary because she doesn’t feel female that I am then buying into all the stereotypes about what women are and should be. So a woman who is not feminine is non-binary instead of accepting that a woman can be anything and it doesn’t mean a certain personality type. If I wear a badge saying I use she/her pronouns, it feels like I am saying that I have chosen these pronouns because I identify with feminine stereotypes.
But even the wokest of the woke colleagues seem to have no issue with using feminine pronouns for me but they have never actually asked me about it. Yet at the same time they go on about how we can never presume pronouns. It’s so strange.

Basically, at the end of the day, I can use whatever language I want to describe myself but it won’t stop me being discriminated against because to the rest of the world I am female, even if I claim not to be.

I agree that being forced to use wrong sex, or made up, pronouns is forcing people to adhere to an ideology they don't necessarily agree with.

However, my biggest problem with them is the complete lack of consideration for vulnerable people who won't, with the best will in the world, be able to comply with such demands.

It is hard enough for university educated, developmentally normal, healthy adults to force themselves into complying, it goes so against the normal linguistic grain. But for people with learning disabilities, for people with dementia, for people who aren't first language speakers? For many it is flat out impossible and I worry that trans privilege activists are such a bunch of spoiled, self centred brats they would put their own hurty fee-fees ahead of the needs of the genuinely vulnerable, with god knows what dire consequences.

It seems like a little thing but every time it happens, the message is sent out that the most important thing about a woman’s status is whether or not she is married whereas it makes no difference for a man

Yes.....this is fundamental feminist stuff....none of us here are unaware of that .And yet this is in the context when many women, themselves, still seem to relish using the title 'Mrs' and giving up their name upon marriage.

Yes, to someone like Just, a title is nothing to be concerned about

You know nothing about me or my experiences in life, only what I have said on here. Like you ( I'm imagining you are in your late 20's /early 30's) many women, when younger, or fresh to the women's movement/feminism, got riled about these things - but have since gained more perspective and sense of priority - and our selves and identities have formed in such a way that they don't, necessarily, hinge on these issues.

It's a matter of picking your battles.

I remember being told to get a grip by my friend who wanted to have the traditional ‘obey’ vows at her wedding when I said that I wouldn’t personally dream of it

Neither would I. I got married in a friend's kitchen and we wrote our own vows. I use my own name too. Always have.

But as you point out many women are still keen for the big wedding, 'Mrs' business. They feel it gives them some longed for status - even though most of us here can see through that, and would never dream of that ourselves.

I use Ms when writing but have noticed that when I introduce myself by phone (the only time I use a title about myself) I tend to say either Miss or Mrs, completely randomly and unintentionally.

Just I don’t get that. You can care about a range of things that affect women. Of course I don’t think it is THE most important thing. But it’s also one where I am not going to sit back and say I don’t care about it because it’s pretty easy to sort out. I Germany for instance, no distinction is made between married and unmarried women and nobody seems to have died. Historically they had a distinction but not anymore and all women are Frau.

I know that being a ‘trad wife’ is popular, especially among younger women who haven’t had to fight the battles of previous generations. But I don’t care too much to be honest. If someone gets upset that everyone is now Ms and she wanted to let the world know that she was married, then so what? Maybe she should get a hobby.

Sadly I think that the internalised misogyny is so deep in this country that there would indeed be a backlash if a change was imposed. I can imagine the headlines ‘Being a wife is the most important thing in my life and these hairy unattractive feminists should keep their noses out’. Personally I think it should be done anyway. If lots of companies and official bodies stop offering anything other than Mr and Ms or do away with title altogether, that would be a start.

At the same time, I am also engaged in addressing more serious problems like domestic violence, female poverty, rape prosecution policies etc.