Sandra in finance

[BillStickersIsInnocent]

I know I’ve seen this somewhere but can’t find it - can anyone help?

It’s a feminist critique of comments like ‘I don’t care what Wendy in accounts says’ or ‘Yes, this is politically important, Tina in finance’

Basically taking an age- related name and using it to shame and belittle women through assuming homogenous behaviour.

Does anyone know what I’m on about?

Karen - I’d like to speak to the manager. It’s a “hilarious” way of taking the piss out of women in the 40+ age bracket. Ageism and sexism in one happy little meme.

I know exactly what you mean, and agree that it's shitty.

I havent read the article you're referring to though sadly.

I know exactly what you mean, because I have done it once or twice- copying what I had seen thinking it was funny and made me sound clever and insouciant. Then thought about, realised what I was doing and that it was quite unpleasant, copped myself on and stopped doing it.

I commented on it once on aibu as an aside and many people jumped on me to say it wasn't offensive in any way, and the names are completely random and coincidental.

It absolutely is sexist and offensive.

And yes, it's always a certain type of female name. "X does this. Don't be like X" is quite often a male name, if the thing is just something bigoted or nasty; but "Yes, Tina in finance" is always female and always getting sneered at for being thick and only interested in sleb gossip rather weighty issues of national importance suitable for men.

Interesting you raise it as a feminist issue. Would it therefor be ok if it was put as ‘I don’t care what Michael in accounts says’ or ‘Yes, this is politically important, John in finance’

www.newstatesman.com/science-tech/internet/2018/01/karen-sharon-becky-and-chad-how-it-feels-when-your-name-becomes-meme

This one?

It’s worse than just ageism + sexism. It’s also classist.

Yes, I get this 100 per cent.

The MRAs also use "speak to the manager haircut" and "TE*F bangs'. Ironic, considering their leader, Green, had the haircut they speak of for a long time.

Karen memes are a good example, thanks.

The new statesman article almost gets there ‘it could also have a sexist angle’ !!!
Article says that names give social information (age, sex, class as pp said) and female names change more quickly than Male so easier to pinpoint in time/place for purpose of ‘joke’. But sexism absolutely plays a part. (Also my phone is capitalising Male - wtf? Does it know where I’m posting 😂)

Yes BigFatLiar I think this type of meme can be classist (Barry?) but a combination of sex/invisible woman age/ and class makes it triply powerful when aimed at women.

BigFatLiar - I don’t think Michael and John come with same ageist and classist baggage. Not sure what the equivalent would be, maybe Barry and Trevor?

Incel types use ‘Chad’ and ‘Tyrone’ but those aren’t ageist. Might be in 30 years though?

If male names were used as often as women that would obviously remove the sexism angle, but the point is that male names aren't used in this way.

There's also a classism angle (I don't think Michael and John would be the male names chosen); it's just a sneery thing to say in general.

Susan or Sue is another one.

(Also my phone is capitalising Male - wtf? Does it know where I’m posting)

My phone does that all the time, drives me crazy. I have to correct it every single time. Doesn't bother its arse doing it for female, luckily 😂

There's also a classism angle (I don't think Michael and John would be the male names chosen); it's just a sneery thing to say in general.

Wayne and Darren, perhaps?

Yep, I've hated this since it first appeared, now it's all over Mumsnet. It's so belittling and dismissive - 'thanks for your input, Karen' or somesuch. Always a middle aged woman's name. But mention it at all and you get told you have a sense of humour failure.

It is popular on the Style & Beauty board, on any hair related post a poster will inevitably come up with the 'Can I Speak to Manager' haircut as if they are saying something witty and fresh, rather than stale and misogynist. I challenge it every time.

My dds expressed great amused horror when I was thinking of getting what they called the 'speak to the manager' haircut. It's a sort of stepped bob, worn by women of my age (50ish) for the very obvious reasons that it's practical and flattering to hair that often loses its fullness around menopause.

I found the name and the stereotype hugely offensive. It implies that being assertive and female in middle age is ridiculous. The underlying message is based on the assumption that older women should be invisible. That when they get above themselves and make a fuss they're just being silly, shrill and demanding. It's another subtle way for young women to reject their mothers.

(As an aside, did anyone hear the Rachel Cusk essay on Adolescence, which was book of the week on R4 recently? She was brilliant on the disdain teenage girls have for their mothers.)

Interesting about names giving out social information. When I was a child, Mabel and Violet were working class 'old lady' names, now they seem to be popular middle class baby names.

I wonder when Barry and Trevor will be rebranded?

I have seen this around. It is a type of middle class rank-pulling, born of middle class anxiety in my view. (Not that that anxiety excuses it).

It’s all of a piece with laughing at people in service industries for being obedient and ‘jobsworth’ (like you would have a choice not to be, if you want to keep that job).

No coincidence that this thing comes at a time when casualised and precarious labour is increasingly a thing for all age groups. I’ve often seen it used by younger women against older women as a way of signalling ‘cool girl’-ness and how older women (Lisa, Karen, Susan) are one indistinguishable wrong blob. Except it signals massive status anxiety, sexism, snobbery and ageism.

I was on a thread the other day and someone posted a photo of a graduated bob and said 'Karen is that you?' and then other people were saying they'd spat their tea out etc and I had no idea what it meant but now I get it and I agree it is intended to belittle middle aged women.

And the sneery comments that always pop up about Maureen in accounts wind me right up because it's deliberately targeted at belittling the jobs that a lot of women do. And it's no coincidence that it's always 'finance' that is chosen because finance and accountancy used to be male dominated but now that women do those jobs they are viewed as low skilled. I work in finance and there is not a single person in our finance department, not even the most junior member of staff, who is not at least a part qualified accountant with ACCA or CIMA. But that doesn't stop other staff referring to us as 'the girls in finance' (we're all over 40 ).

There was a thread in S&B quite recently where a woman was upset about the "Can I Speak to the Manager" bob meme, because she had thin hair and that particular style was the only one that really suited her. The replies were almost unanimous in being sneeringly dismissive and one poster in particular kept posting the meme and insisting that it was hilarious. It's really not. But then, S&B is one of the most ageist parts of MN. I used to frequent it because it was one of the few boards that wasn't rampantly fat-phobic as well, but now I have to choose between feeling crap about my size and feeling past-it.

OMG - I have a "can I speak to the manager" haircut. I never knew it was a thing. Everyone says my hair looks great - my hair is really thick still so I actually have to have it thinned slightly. It suits me. I am gutted. But still not going to change it!

It's really obnoxious ageist sexism. As pp said "what could a middle aged woman possibly have of value to contribute".

One of my friends recently made a stupid Facebook post about trans issues which focussed on MN and there were her awful woke friends "Karening" all over it. I'm sure they think they're excellent righteous people. Misogynistic twats.

I hate it too. It is very much “get back in your box middle aged woman” & implies that middle aged women get upset over stupid things, things that men & young women wouldn’t be bothered about because they’re not a stupid conservative middle aged woman 🙄🙄

Sexist ageist & classist