Page 7 | Sheffield strip club keeps licence despite opposition by feminist coalition

TheAlternativeTentacle · 19/09/2019 12:18

You can't just go round taking naked pics of people without their consent

Hence asking how else to gather evidence.

TheAlternativeTentacle · 19/09/2019 12:23

I’ve provided evidence of how the clubs I worked in gathered evidence.

Usually when people say that rather than such provide the actual words it means they haven't, but I am happy to go back and re-read all your posts as I don't remember you giving any other examples of how evidence could be gathered if an establishment is clearly in breach of regulation.

LangCleg · 19/09/2019 12:42

Where have I supported unenforceable "regulation" ?! I’ve merely stated some of the many different layers of regulation which were in place when I worked in the industry.

And when it's common knowledge that both club policies and regulatory bodies are failing to deal with normalised, every day breaches - you object to whistleblowing. In an industry known to involve exploitation and trafficking when regulation fails.

Provide an alternative method of dealing with regulation that is unenforced in a wholesale way and I'll listen to you.

Otherwise, I'll continue to assume an "I was alright Jack" position taken by you.

KatesMott · 19/09/2019 12:45

Usually when people say that rather than such provide the actual words it means they haven't, but I am happy to go back and re-read all your posts as I don't remember you giving any other examples of how evidence could be gathered if an establishment is clearly in breach of regulation

Ok here you are TheAlternativeTentacle, just for you and gathered together hopefully succinctly, ways in which evidence is gathered which I have witnessed (ergo, this list is not exhaustive)

Reviews called by Local Authorities police or other interested party- if a review is initiated they will collect evidence in a number of ways including, but not limited to, interviewing people who work there, requesting to view filmed material from inside the club footage of which has been captured and retained via strict guidance and with the full consent of all employed in the venue

Random inspections by the local authority/licencing committee- often carried out undercover but it is written into a workers contract that such undercover visits can and do happen

Evidence provided by witnesses in the club- including staff. I’ve reported incidents of licence breaches to management personally and these have been immediately and satisfactorily dealt with. As I mentioned upthread, a club does not want to risk being fined or having its licence temporarily suspended or revoked
.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 19/09/2019 12:45

my primary objection is to women being illegally filmed in a state of undress without their consent

But why is this so bad? What is it about being undressed that changes the dynamics?

LangCleg · 19/09/2019 12:49

For the final time my primary objection is to women being illegally filmed in a state of undress without their consent by a group with no legal jurisdiction to do so. If you do think that that is acceptable and doesn’t open up a host of worrying issues then might I suggest that some reflection is in order for you too

My position is entirely clear.

When self regulation and the regulatory authorities fail - in an industry where exploitation and trafficking occurs - it is preferable for whistleblowers to provide video evidence to authorities, which is not made public, to prevent exploitation and trafficking from occurring.

You have described the extant regulatory regime and said it didn't fail in your case. You have yet to suggest a solution for what should be done, other than whistleblowing, in cases where it does fail. You think the status quo is acceptable.

We can go to 40 pages: you won't give a solution, will you?

KatesMott · 19/09/2019 12:51

LangCleg

And when it's common knowledge that both club policies and regulatory bodies are failing to deal with normalised, every day breaches - you object to whistleblowing. In an industry known to involve exploitation and trafficking when regulation fails

Provide an alternative method of dealing with regulation that is unenforced in a wholesale way and I'll listen to you

Otherwise, I'll continue to assume an "I was alright Jack" position taken by you

I do not object to whistle-blowing- I’ve whistle blown myself when working in lap dancing clubs, again as mentioned upthread. What I do object to, again for what must be the fifth time, is the ILLEGAL and NON CONSENSUAL filming of naked and semi undressed women by a group of unregulated people acting under no legal jurisdiction. I’ve given examples of regulations that are enforced, I’ve shown examples of how but you clearly will not be happy until I conclude that all lap dancing clubs should be shut down.

Datun · 19/09/2019 12:51

kate none of those procedures produced any 'evidence'.

The filming did. All those procedures failed to do what they are designed for. Hence the whistleblowing.

So what would you have done instead of the whistleblowing?

Because that's the entire purpose of allowing whistleblowing. Making it legal. And making retaliation wrong. It's to give people the courage to expose illegal or unhealthy practices. Which is what they did. Hence all the breaches.

Given the procedures that you talk of failed, what would you have done?

LangCleg · 19/09/2019 12:52

Reviews called by Local Authorities police or other interested party- if a review is initiated they will collect evidence in a number of ways including, but not limited to, interviewing people who work there, requesting to view filmed material from inside the club footage of which has been captured and retained via strict guidance and with the full consent of all employed in the venue

Random inspections by the local authority/licencing committee- often carried out undercover but it is written into a workers contract that such undercover visits can and do happen

Evidence provided by witnesses in the club- including staff. I’ve reported incidents of licence breaches to management personally and these have been immediately and satisfactorily dealt with. As I mentioned upthread, a club does not want to risk being fined or having its licence temporarily suspended or revoked

Christ on a bike. How many more times? The regulatory body could have done this but did not, even though concerns were brought multiple times.

The issue at hand is what do you do when the regulatory authority fails?

All you've done is describe what should have been done and wasn't, hence the bloody whistleblowing.

Datun · 19/09/2019 12:53

kate many of the previous employees complained about the breaches. But they were ignored.

If you say there has been sexual harassment and disallowed touching, and no one listens, what else is there to do?

How can you show there is, without showing there is??

RosesAndRaindrops · 19/09/2019 12:55

my primary objection is to women being illegally filmed in a state of undress without their consent

But why is this so bad?

Really?! You're really asking why is it so bad to film someone naked without their consent?
Wow.

What is it about being undressed that changes the dynamics?
The fact dynamics might change when you take your clothes off is neither here nor there.
You seem to be saying that there's a different dynamic for say the aforementioned sweat sport shops who are clothed, maybe so, there is, and yes dynamics change when you are naked/half undressed.
It's still not right to film other women secretly in a state of undress without their knowledge.

Datun · 19/09/2019 13:00

All you've done is describe what should have been done and wasn't, hence the bloody whistleblowing.

That's what I meant, and far more succinctly.

KatesMott · 19/09/2019 13:01

LangCleg

When self regulation and the regulatory authorities fail - in an industry where exploitation and trafficking occurs - it is preferable for whistle-blowers to provide video evidence to authorities, which is not made public, to prevent exploitation and trafficking from occurring.

What exactly did this achieve? The club didn’t get its licence revoked and has been allowed to continue operating. I cant comment on the individual day to day running of a club I’ve not worked in in over 10 years. However, there is no saying that what was uncovered by the illegal filming wouldn’t have been uncovered during the next LEGAL inspection, likewise there’s no saying it could. I’m not posting here under the pretence that I have all of the answers- I’m just trying to give examples from my time working within the industry.

You think that suspending a woman’s right to be able to consent to be filmed by a group of unregulated people whilst semi naked or naked is fine, I think it is horrific that you can talk of removing consent from a group of women without consulting with them, regardless of what the alleged intention behind this is.

TheAlternativeTentacle · 19/09/2019 13:02

and yes dynamics change when you are naked/half undressed.

That's weird that you admitted that, when you think it is ok for men to access female spaces under the pretence of being 'women'. why doesn't that dynamic matter to you I wonder.

Strange. And for another thread no doubt.

RosesAndRaindrops · 19/09/2019 13:06

However, there is no saying that what was uncovered by the illegal filming wouldn’t have been uncovered during the next LEGAL inspection
Exactly, they'll have legal inspections just like everywhere else which would hopefully uncover. Like every other workplace.

You think that suspending a woman’s right to be able to consent to be filmed by a group of unregulated people whilst semi naked or naked is fine, I think it is horrific that you can talk of removing consent from a group of women without consulting with them, regardless of what the alleged intention behind this is
Same, who gets to decide who's "worthy" of taking nude footage?
You could be anybody.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 19/09/2019 13:06

I’m interested that so far no one has been able to explain why taking a video of someone naked is different to taking a video of them fully clothed

RosesAndRaindrops · 19/09/2019 13:10

I’m interested that so far no one has been able to explain why taking a video of someone naked is different to taking a video of them fully clothed

Are you actually being serious? You seriously don't know the difference between someone taking a fully clothed video and one naked?
Just... seriously? There's no words.
You must be having a laugh or something.
Not OK to film someone without their consent full stop, but especially not OK undressed.
To have to point this out on the frickin' feminism board is unreal.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 19/09/2019 13:14

Roses

I don’t normally engage with you

But you haven’t explained

It’s ok if you can’t by the way

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 19/09/2019 13:21

A system that's already failed will definitely work the next time, you just have to believe!

Lots of belief in things there's no evidence for going around.

RosesAndRaindrops · 19/09/2019 13:22

That's weird that you admitted that, when you think it is ok for men to access female spaces under the pretence of being 'women'. why doesn't that dynamic matter to you I wonder

This isn't a trans thread, so not relevant.
We're coming at this from completely different angles so we're never going to agree -
I mean, I'm coming from it from the angle that as women we are individuals, with our own minds and can choose for ourselves what we do without being told how to think or what to do.
Others are coming at it from the angle that everything women do is for the men, they can't possibly know what they want to do for themselves and if they think differently they're just poor little brainwashed women who don't know any better or dim.
So there's no wonder really you think trans is relevant here or to my point, or strange that I realise dynamics change because I'm not coming at it from a every woman everywhere is oppressed, can't think for themselves, victim status who need to be freed.
If people want to work there of there own free will, why shouldn't the have the choice?
Yes, choice isn't made in a vacuum before anyone starts, but why does that mean you get to dictate how other women live their lives or what they can and can't do just to fit your world view?
Deal with any abusers harshly , crack down on them instead of taking away choice and freedom of thought for women.

escapade1234 · 19/09/2019 13:28

Christ, no little girl grows hopes to be a stripper when she grows up. Those women have learned their bodies are commodities. I’m not interested in their personal desire to strip. I’m concerned that strip clubs encourage men to see women as objects for their entertainment. In my view, they should be illegal.

Datun · 19/09/2019 13:30

Christ on a bike. How many more times? The regulatory body could have done this but did not, even though concerns were brought multiple times.

Some people, no matter what, will think that sexual harassment and abuse of women is acceptable. And that the methods employed to expose it, and the huge scale of it, should not happen. And that these women are just collateral damage.

Thankfully the report included testimony from previous employees.

escapade1234 · 19/09/2019 13:32

If people want to work there of there own free will, why shouldn't the have the choice?

Because it harms all women to have such places legitimised. It plays into the belief that women’s bodies are a commercial enterprise, that we are for sale. I have the same problem with surrogacy actually. I have strong doubts that any woman really loves writhing around naked for salivating men to ogle her. And if she does, that’s a fetish and she should perhaps take up dogging in the woods instead.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 19/09/2019 13:42

People will take all kinds of jobs if it's that or no food on the table. Normally one is allowed to critique economic exploitation and mistreatment of workers, and investigations and whistleblowers are lauded if they help to correct said exploitation even a little bit.

Introduce cocks that will be happy if the exploitation is allowed to continue and sad if it's curbed and suddenly everyone's all "Maybe sweatshops weren't so bad after all, and why did we stop sending children down the mines? Freedom! Choice! Agency!"

Datun · 19/09/2019 13:49

My six-year-old offered to go up the blocked chimney if I gave him a tenner.

A quick slathering of his limbs with Vasoline and we were toasting marshmallows in no time.