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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Middle ground

471 replies

HDDD · 15/09/2019 12:45

I've been trying to follow conversations online in regard to gender critical thought, pronouns, selfID, transrights, lesbian erasure etc. And all I can find is extreme views on both sides. Is there a middle ground? Is it here? Is Twitter too toxic? I want to be informed not screamed at.

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CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost · 15/09/2019 12:49

What middle ground would you suggest op?

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TheAlternativeTentacle · 15/09/2019 12:51

And all I can find is extreme views on both sides

What are these extreme views exactly?

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JoyceJeffries · 15/09/2019 12:52

Tell us what the middle ground is if you don’t like the arguments on offer?

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AE18 · 15/09/2019 12:54

I know what you mean OP, I feel like I fall into that middle ground but it's hard to offer any kind of middle of the road solution because either way someone's rights are being overlooked.

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Inebriati · 15/09/2019 12:57

The problem is a space or service is either single sex or mixed sex.
If it is single sex it is probably that way by necessity, so making it mixed sex is harming the people who need it to be single sex.

The possible compromise is easy, create a third mixed sex space or service.

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averylongtimeago · 15/09/2019 12:59

By extreme views, do you mean saying that men can't become women because of biology?

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HDDD · 15/09/2019 13:00

What middle ground would you suggest op?

I don't know - that's what I am looking for. I find myself thinking yes I agree with that ie that gender is not 'assigned at birth'. I watched the Breakfast club video thing yesterday with Malik Yoba and some it infuriated me - particularly the other bloke who was banging on about listening but was shouting over everyone else. But then some of the tweets about the interview infuriated me - people shouting each other down, no one listening, no one hearing.

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Birdsfoottrefoil · 15/09/2019 13:01

I know what you mean OP, I feel like I fall into that middle ground but it's hard to offer any kind of middle of the road solution because either way women’s rights are being overlooked.

Fixed it!

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JoyceJeffries · 15/09/2019 13:01

Can you imagine 20yrs ago that “women don’t have penises” would become an extreme view? Just incredible.

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Inebriati · 15/09/2019 13:02

Third space option is fairest option all round.

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Michelleoftheresistance · 15/09/2019 13:03

'Women keeping their rights under law' is not an extremist position.

Very odd that you see it that way. Unless you believe that a woman saying no or not prioritising men is an extremist woman full stop.

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UnWilly · 15/09/2019 13:05

Not everything has a middle ground

yourlogicalfallacyis.com/middle-ground

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HDDD · 15/09/2019 13:07

I think what I'm saying is that I want to be informed on the issues and I want to find the right platform to be informed but I hate the shouting down that comes from all sides.
I did my research prior to the GRA consultation deadline and I was appalled by the propaganda and suggested proforma replies from some organisations. I've tried to keep up to date since.
I'm against self ID. I think women's spaces need to stay women's spaces.
I think call yourself what you want - live how you want but don't tell me what to call you.

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BarbaraStrozzi · 15/09/2019 13:07

UnWilly beat me to it. Either you believe TWAW or you don't. It really is a binary choice.

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HDDD · 15/09/2019 13:09

Blimey - some of the replies! Maybe this is not the space either. You've assumed what I mean by extreme - I mean shouting and not listening for one.

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HotCheese · 15/09/2019 13:10

Women wanting to retain their single sex rights has been painted as an extremist view for the benefit of men.

Acknowledging that people cannot literally change sex is now extremist.

Men cannot be lesbians - also extremist.

It’s all about the bullying, gaslighting atmosphere that has been created when it comes to trans stuff. The fact that common sense and facts are now seen as extreme, bigoted and transphobic tells us everything we need to know about this ideology.

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JoyceJeffries · 15/09/2019 13:10

Tbf we were constantly told there was to be “no debate” on the matter. TRAs don’t want to listen.

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Ounce · 15/09/2019 13:15

Are you asking the TRAs to help you with this,OP? Or just the women?

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AE18 · 15/09/2019 13:15

@Birdsfoottrefoil no you haven't fixed it, you've just changed it to your opinion and rather proved OPs point. I agree women's rights are at risk, I just also have some sympathy for the other side. Hence the call for a middle ground.

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Michelleoftheresistance · 15/09/2019 13:16

Who's shouting? Who's not listening? Please share those bits because I missed them.

This is the second post this morning reproaching women with a message that boils down to 'no one will listen to you if you're not nice and polite while laws are being drafted to rip your rights away and social media has jokes about killing you and raping you for daring to say anything at all '

I'm sorry, this is a bit of a case of 'if you can keep your head while all about you.... then you have not fully understood the situation'.

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HDDD · 15/09/2019 13:17

*Are you asking the TRAs to help you with this,OP? Or just the women?"
Gosh, I have no idea who is here. It was a call out to women on mumsnet?

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BarbaraStrozzi · 15/09/2019 13:19

I feel like we may be reading this thread with different preconceptions. I see a lot of women patiently explaining why what you are describing as extreme views - that penises aren't part of male anatomy, that lesbians are same sex attracted, that people with male anatomy in women's spaces (sports and prisons for example) cuts into women's rights - are pretty much still the mainstream views of most of the population (as Pink News discovered, much to its embarrassment, when it commissioned a survey).

Yet you see this not as people taking time out of their day to discuss with you, but as people shouting at you. When really they aren't.

This makes me think that either you have come here with a pre-existing deeply entrenched position (and are being highly disingenuous when you say you just want to find a middle ground) or you are in fact not posting in good faith.

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jellyfrizz · 15/09/2019 13:21

To me the root of it lies with whether you consider sex or gender identity to be more important.
For me it's sex. If anyone could give a definitive definition of gender identity I could maybe consider an argument for that overriding sex but no one has.

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testing987654321 · 15/09/2019 13:23

Here's a hint - mostly women on mumsnet.

The trans activists like to visit, but you won't find a group of transactivists here because this is a board for women.

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testing987654321 · 15/09/2019 13:25

I suggest watching Magdalen Berns' videos. She simply speaks in her videos.

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