Middle ground

[HDDD]

I've been trying to follow conversations online in regard to gender critical thought, pronouns, selfID, transrights, lesbian erasure etc. And all I can find is extreme views on both sides. Is there a middle ground? Is it here? Is Twitter too toxic? I want to be informed not screamed at.

[LangCleg]

Point of order: no need to @ people who are already on the thread. It simply clogs their notifications. Bolding their name is sufficient. As can be seen by everyone else doing it.

Novembersbean - this is an endless straw man you're setting up. It's not a middle ground to have sympathy for dysphoric males (although it's to be noted that large numbers of "transwomen" aren't dysphoric by their own say so). It has nothing to do with a middle ground. It's just normal humanity. But it has nothing to do with feminism, women's rights or child protection - you seem to take badly to this being pointed out to you. I'm not sure why you think women who say "Yes, it's rotten if you're dysphoric but it's not a reason to remove my rights" are not showing sympathy to the dysphoria but at the same time drawing boundaries around their rights. It doesn't seem like a quantum leap in logic.

[popehilarious]

There are literally hundreds possibly thousands of threads on this forum alone, explaining the facts.
My point exactly! It's bewildering trying to pick where to even start. The issues are many and far-reaching.

And yes I accept the argument that we don't want to be goaded into ammunition etc and it is immensely frustrating that we cannot even have a frank conversation without constant, constant editing of our thoughts. It is another form of attack on us nasty women.

I still think we should persevere where we can!

[Novembersbean]

@TheAlternativeTentacle

There are literally hundreds possibly thousands of threads on this forum alone, explaining the facts.

Are you not just proving my point? It is not a big thing, I am not demanding that anyone modify their behaviour, I am simply saying that from what I have experienced, those threads are few and far between amongst ones that are simply aggressive or exclusionary towards people that don't have the same wealth of knowledge of a subject that lets face it is not all that widely reported, and the response to anyone brave enough to ask is simply "we've explained it elsewhere, go find it", despite the fact that people are telling you that they have looked and can't find it because there is an awful lot of the aforementioned not to mention littered with acronyms people do not know the meaning of. A link to a good post would be far more useful than simply "you're stupid if you can't find it". Or silence it you can't be bothered to explain.

If you are not interested in educating people that is fine, but antagonistic responses towards people looking to be educated are effectively alienating people that could well stand beside you as allies if there was a little patience.

[popehilarious]

I had only vague knowledge of the Break It Down thread tbh, I'd be happy with that being used as a "first response" kind of thing? I was reading a couple of blog posts yesterday that lay it all out simply, linked from that thread, that I hadn't even read before.

[OldCrone]

I don't share the same level of conviction as many others that they are purely delusional.

What do you think it means when someone says they are 'trans'? I think there are a number of reasons why people declare this about themselves.

Some truly believe they are in the wrong body or that they actually 'are' the opposite sex. These are the people who I would call delusional.

Some of them have a fetish about wearing opposite sex clothes and/or are aroused by the thought of themselves as the opposite sex (AGP). Most late-transitioning heterosexual males fall into this category.

Some of them are trying to escape from past trauma or abuse by identifying as the opposite sex. This is why some children and young people decide they are/want to be the opposite sex.

Some people declare themselves transgender because they are uncomfortable with the idea of being homosexual. This is part of the reason for so many teenage girls and young women declaring that they are trans or non binary. It is also one of the reasons why some parents think their gender nonconforming child is trans (or as they might put it 'better a straight daughter than a gay son').

So we have:
Delusion
Fetish
Escape from past trauma/abuse
Internalised homophobia

Have I missed anything? I assume you think there are other reasons for people being 'trans', @Novembersbean.

[Barracker]

The truth is that some issues should NOT have a middle ground, and it takes courage and integrity to hold that line.

Slavery vs abolition is one.

Recognition of female people vs denying their existence is one.

If we are recognised, then we must have a name.
If we have a name then we are distinct from those who cannot share that name.
If we are distinct then we can be accorded rights, and dignity, and fairness.

Either I can assert myself as the opposite sex to a man and invoke my rights on that basis,
or he can assert himself as the same sex as me, and prevent me from invoking my rights.

There isn't any middle ground to be had.
Either the truth prevails, and I am recognised as his opposite, or his lie persists, and I cease to be recognised, along with my daughter and every female person alive.

There's no middle ground between the truth and the lie. The moment you depart from the truth you're already part of the lie.

[BeMoreMagdalen]

pope, you are literally talking to women who have been here for years, explaining this, mobilising women all over the shop to stand up. Every day any number of us will do it again, and lo, we're doing it on this thread. We are persevering. Some of us are just a wee bit ticked off with being chided for not doing it as winsomely as those who don't yet grasp the issues would have us do it.

I'll say again, this is precisely why the Break it down for me thread was created, but no, MNHQ won't pin it because apparently that would mean they were taking sides. So we shall just have to bump it or link, sadly.

[TruthOnTrial]

Sadly, November if you are heard to say that you'd be labelled a transphobe and a t*.

Not here, and not by those who have genuine dysphoric struggles all their lives, seek medical assistance, and genital surgeries, to fit with their psychological identity.

So the view on the term 'extreme' is one of the most highly subjective there is at the moment; making a measure of it, middling, also highly subjective.

Wheres the middle ground anyway in retaining women's rights?

Either women can be assured of safety in refuge away from male bodies or they can't. They alwaya have been, until now.

Women in Refuge are fighting for theirs and their families lives, homeless. They do not share the issues trans people do, and trans people do not share women's issues.

The power in a women's space is the women only nature of that space.

There doesnt have to be a middle ground.

There's no middle ground in safeguarding dc, its safeguarding, its all about risk assessment and safety of dc, not about concerns over upsetting someone who wants to be alone in a cubicle with a naked child, for instance.

[Novembersbean]

Ok Langcleg, not everybody spends so much time on an Internet forum that they know the ins and outs of the conventions of how people correspond on it, I've seen lots of people @ people on here, there's really no need to be so patronising. Kind of like there's no need to be patronising to people who haven't spend a large amount of time researching the pros and cons of trans rights, and are coming on here to look for that information, but perhaps you can't see my point because you are naturally prone to being patronising.

I don't really understand why you've directed the rest to me, you've completely misconstrued my point. My point was how comments are directed to people that don't know very much or express any sympathy towards trans people, not ones that talk purely of women's rights. My point was about a general lack of patience towards people seeking out the information, which everybody needs to do before they can establish which side of the fence they fall on.

[popehilarious]

bemore, I realise and very sincerely appreciate the women who've been doing this work for years. My posts aren't necessarily aimed at them, more a general musing to show empathy with the OP and others who think there must be a middle ground if only we try hard enough.

I post from a position of being aware I'm still learning, but thanks to you guys I am quietly doing my bit in real life and elsewhere online. I just want to do the same for other newbies. But can appreciate that patience isn't infinite!

I find it hard to keep up with every issue on fwr and I'm on mn quite a lot, but i know I miss big chunks. I hadn't realised about that thread not being allowed to be stickied.

[TruthOnTrial]

Oops massive x-post there. Specifically, Barracker who also raised the not always a middle ground.

[popehilarious]

Sorry I think I missed a few posts upthread, it really is hard to keep up with it all!

[Novembersbean]

Both fair points Barracker and Truthontrial, interesting and helpful to hear them explained. It's a slightly different definition of the term middle ground than I was thinking of in my comments. I don't have a middle ground in how I think the issue can be practically dealt with, just in where my sympathies lie.

[truthisarevolutionaryact]

Right - no point in repeating all the explanations that Novembersbean has been offered and evidently rejected about why at times women on here are not as welcoming and patient as they would like us to be.

I am going to finish my letter to my MP about the horror of the EHRC guidelines that are about to hit schools unless we try to stop them.

[Tyrotoxicity]

I do believe that dysmorphia exists in many forms

I agree.

I believe we call it dysmorphia when it's so entrenched we can't see an easy way to fix it, and we call it dysphoria when we understand that there's a way but it's hard.

The middle ground is all about allowing people to work it out for themselves but not giving them the information or the time that they need to see the pattern. It doesn't help people unless they're somehow lucky enough to fall far enough into radical feminism that they can recognise the pattern and recognise how it has been and continues to be applied to them.

You can get rid of gender dysphoria. Detransitioners are doing it every day. You can make a hell of a dent even when it's so entrenched that it's become dysmorphia - MY is one of the rare examples.

It's not intractable. It just takes work.

And one of the core fundamental components to being able to do it, is realising that you're not just a homunculus, and you're not just a body; you're a human being subject to the force of gendered socialisation.

Once you see the pattern, you can start analysing it, and stepping away from it, and stopping identifying yourself within it.

You can't see the pattern until you stop identifying as a fixed point.

Then you do your intuitive NLP reprogramming shit and boom. You're on the up, dysphoria resolving. Speaking from experience here.

The "middle ground" is all about denying people access to the pattern, so they can never properly acknowledge it. That's how the middle ground keeps itself in the middle.

[truthisarevolutionaryact]

Apologies Novembersbean - that was snarky - it's just the frustration of having to explain ourselves time after time after ........ sigh...

[Aberhonddu]

Novembersbean
How many more times are you going to repeat your point that posters on here aren't helpful. I know your opinions very well.
I've never found anyone on here to be unhelpful, dismissive or showing a lack of patience.Quite the contrary.

But there again I've never told the posters here that they should be nicer to people that don't really have an opinion on the trans debate.
I've also never informed the posters here that they should educate me on the nuances of the trans debate.
I've been able to access wide and varied views because it's a subject that I'm interested in.

[Novembersbean]

No I don't really think there are other reasons OldCrone, I just have a degree of sympathy for the people who fall into your "delusional" category because the brain is a very complicated construct and constant balance of hormones etc and things can and do go wrong in the womb. I'm not a scientist and I can't claim to be, I just have some caution about dismissing these people because I fear it could be a part of how their mind is built up and not something that could be cured with therapy etc, so the kindest way to allow them happiness is to allow them to do with their (adult) body what they will. I find it disquieting to hear people be cruel in their judgment of them in the same way that I would with someone with any other mental abnormality, unless of course they themselves they themselves have been aggressive which is not the case of all trans people.

It is not my hill to die on, just something that does contribute to finding this debate difficult to enter.

[LangCleg]

The truth is that some issues should NOT have a middle ground, and it takes courage and integrity to hold that line.

Yes. It's a zero sum conflict.

[Novembersbean]

Aberhonddu

Oh my gosh how many times do I have to say that I'm not telling anyone to do anything? I have repeated my point because people keep asking me about it, it is normal to respond when people quote you.

I only came on here to leave one comment agreeing with OP that I struggle to find useful information on the subject because of the strength of feeling. I received many comments with people disagreeing with me, fair enough, that's their right, but I was here to show solidarity with OP, not argue with anyone else and certainly not to tell anyone what to do. I have reiterated that many times.

[Tyrotoxicity]

I wish someone [...] would properly explain what the gender critical 'extreme' looks like and why it is objectionable.

It's 'objectionable' because it's sufficiently far out of alignment with the mainstream.

The mainstream is the patriarchal male-dominant status quo. That's where the Overton window of 'acceptable' is currently at - and women backing down is still built into it as standard.

Most people here are nominally gender-critical, but there are far greater depths to plumb or heights to ascend on that one.

The middle ground is shifting this way, the middle ground is shifting that way, both at the same time. The middle ground is expanding.

Women saying no are always considered extreme and objectionable. That's patriarchy. And it's been around for so many thousands of years that we've just... forgotten. The mainstream itself, the middle ground, the status quo we actually get rather than the one we think we ought to have - that is the other extreme.

[TruthOnTrial]

I see what you're saying and how much you've gone through to be saying this today!

In a similar vein, there have been times when as I look back now, I can see I was 'identfying' as a lump of meat, a hole, this is what I was pursued for.

This was how society impacted in my experience of it. Socialisation, as its called, only not such a friendly guise.

It renders what left to feel pretty worthless, and unuseful to yourself in a world where your sex is all that matters and shapes the treatment you receive.

When my breasts started to protrude in adolescence my back rounded to suck them back in again. I changed what I wore to not have any necklines, and drab colours. Shapeless clothes to hide my natural female curvy form with hips and breasts.

Even before adolescence, my vulva was grabbed.

I was targeted for assault on the basis of my sex. Enough to put anyone off!

Now I am still sexualised by some men, but I am happy with my own sexuality, and have got a tougher skin and become a lot more aware of male motiviations.

I've seen them, experienced them. Been spied on by men when in changing room s. So no, I really don't think its extreme for me to be able to feel safe when getting naked, to have my privacy, dignity and personal safety protected.

Theres no middle ground on this, and its not an extreme request.

I suppose its worth saying, for balance, no woman ever did any of those things to me. I believe thats a very rare occurence, and is often tied in to conforming to male entitlements, again.

[LangCleg]

I just have some caution about dismissing these people

Dear goddess. How many times?

Nobody is dismissing them. They're simply saying it's not the job of feminism to sort out their problems because they're not women. And, at the moment, the job for feminism is to stop all women's rights from going up in a puff of smoke.

I'm seeing very little good faith from this level of point repeating and filibustering so I'm over and out replying to you.