Middle ground

[HDDD]

I've been trying to follow conversations online in regard to gender critical thought, pronouns, selfID, transrights, lesbian erasure etc. And all I can find is extreme views on both sides. Is there a middle ground? Is it here? Is Twitter too toxic? I want to be informed not screamed at.

Because TWAW, end of conversation: it's about validation and ownership of womanhood, not about the above. And the pile of devastation this would wreak is of no interest to them.

That's why there is no middle ground.

I'd like anyone, to suggest one. Anyone at all. (Apart from the third space, which is refused.)

in reality many of us are living it

What, exactly, are you living? If you are, as you say, speaking of opinion not solution - what, exactly, are you living?

I don't understand at all.

@TheAlternativeTentacle

No I don't think that is extreme. What I'm saying is essentially an example of the age old "if you want people to listen to your point you need to explain it nicely" rhetoric, which I recognise is problematic having fallen onto the other side of it when discussing issues that are closer to my heart. I understand that people don't want to talk nicely when they feel their rights are being infringed, I understand that the "middle ground" folk are stepping into the middle of a battle ground between the most fervent TRA (who they may have simply never encountered as it's not a very large proportion of the population) and the people who have kept most up to date with the things those TRA are saying and come to despise them.

But the reality is that what most of us see is hearsay about what has been said by TRA, and the people arguing the other side going beyond simply standing up for women's rights and actually making unprovoked mockery of trans people, often (on MN) not even on threads relevant to the subject. It may well come from a good place but to someone less in the know or with a more neutral view, it is naturally off putting.

The reason threads like this exist asking if there is a middle ground through which to learn more is because the second you post an opinion or question that is on the fence or unsure you are immediately mocked or smugly dismissed, sending the resounding message that for whatever reason, your views were not strong enough to be respected, you would need to have a more "extreme" view to be part of the conversation - you would need to not only feel strongly about women's rights but also hate or laugh in the face of trans people in general. It comes across like a club you can only join if you have the secret password, but that password is mocking a trans person before you even know why you're doing it.

@LangCleg
Well there's not a whole lot of point you asking the question, because you've said you're not interested in any part of the discussion besides women's rights (which is fair enough imo).

But since you ask what I mean is that when someone posts something saying they have sympathy for both sides and aren't sure what to think, and would like to know more, they are barraged with comments saying they can't think that, it has to be one or the other. What I mean by some of us are living it is that some of us are living in a world where we fear for women's rights and would prioritise them not being infringed, but also feel for trans people in that situation and validate their condition. It does nothing to aid the cause to say you cannot think both of those things, because a lot of people do.

Novembersbean

While talking about the middle ground you commented the reality is that what most of us see is hearsay about what has been said by TRA
Do you realise that this reality is coming down the tracks at 100 miles an hour right now - aimed directly at our rights and the safety of children. In October the EHRC will issue guidelines telling schools that boys self identifying as girls must share changing rooms, showers sleeping accommodation etc with girls - #nodebate - and girls who don't like it must piss off elsewhere. It is as crude and dangerous as that.

While women have been occupying the middle ground welcoming, understanding, listening and tolerating these men with their incessant demands, they have been busy removing all of our hard won rights. We have no time to prevaricate - we either organise and fight now - or our children lose everything.

The last paragraph of novembers post is not my experience

I am often on the fence and unsure and post accordingly

I also dont mock transpeople to get in with the in crowd which is being inferred...or implied

I think you can absolutely take the middle ground on the FWR...as long as you accept everyone has a different red line and opinion

Then you are welcome to support the third space solution and have a chat with the trans lobbyists about it. A number of us tried. We were called witches and blocked etc.

On FWR, many have come to the conclusion through bitter experience, that focusing on women, without apology, is really the only line to hold, because anything else except total, craven capitulation, will get you cast as a transphobe.

You're welcome to try, by all means. But don't expect to post on FWR asking why we aren't more conciliatory and expect everyone to safely nod about moderating our tone. And tbh, I think this thread has been as polite and measured as I've seen one of these balance requests go, so it simply isn't true that no one can raise this without vicious, bruising flaming.

@BeMoreMagdalen I'm not trying to say it's unreasonable for people to be angry or even to express their anger in their tone - like I said, this is a cliche of all debates that include an "ism" and people get tired of moderating their tone. I'm just saying that the natural consequence of that is people that know less and are trying to find out more, or have a more on the fence view, will naturally end up excluded or feeling like they can't find a calm place through which to learn, because they had a middling view and got shouted at, so what conclusion can they draw other than that your view must be more extreme?

I'm not saying you should have to moderate your tone for the sake of these people, just that it's not surprising that they have no idea what's going on/think both sides are coming across as pretty unpleasant.

In October the EHRC will issue guidelines telling schools that boys self identifying as girls must share changing rooms, showers sleeping accommodation etc with girls - #nodebate - and girls who don't like it must piss off elsewhere. It is as crude and dangerous as that.

This!

This is what we're up against.

At the moment if my gym wants to allow a transwoman with penis into the women's changing room I can say "Equalities Act 2010 says single sex spaces are allowed, there's a single occupancy shower just round the corner from the women's changing room, a proportionate response is for the transwoman to use that."

From October, once th EHRC throws it's weight behind this madness, it becomes harder to argue this because even though the law won't have changed, the goalposts if what counts as proportionate need will have been shifted. This is why institutional capture is so important and dangerous.

We end up with a situation where one transwoman occupies a huge communal changing room while scores of women queue for the single occupancy cubicle.

We end up with a situation where one transwoman occupies a huge communal changing room while scores of women queue for the single occupancy cubicle.

And then what? The XY trans people start demanding the removal of single occupancy cubicles because they aren't being validated and that's 'transphobic'? And then what? All the women change at home and the XY trans people demand that be stopped because they aren't being validated and that's 'transphobic'?

Ultimately the XY trans people won't ever get their wish because some things simply don't come with a middle ground. Human's can't change sex and no amount of being nice and understanding will ever be enough because this issue is not like gay rights at all. It isn't about morality, it is about reality and in reality XY people are not women.

I do fundamentally think that a man with dysphoria is still a man, yes, but I also believe that in the incredibly complicated structure of the human brain it is entirely plausible for things to go awry such that the person is genuinely out of step with their body. So, to a degree, I do believe it is a real condition, and very sad for the people who suffer it.

This has been said by many of us on this forum many times. Gender dysphoria is a distressing mental condition which often needs a great deal of sympathetic psychiatric treatment. It exists, but a man who thinks he actually is a 'woman in a man's body', or a girl who thinks she's a 'boy in a girl's body' are people who are suffering from delusions - a delusion is a belief in something which is not true.

somebody like me might take it upon themselves to do some reading into the subject only to find that they are not welcome in these circles of discussion because they also concede that trans might be a legitimate thing to be and it is sad that these people will necessarily have to suffer in order for us to defend the rights of women (which take precedence just due to sheer numbers, if nothing else).

Why do you believe 'trans might be a legitimate thing to be'? Someone thinking that there is something 'wrong' with their healthy body or that they actually are the opposite sex is delusional. Why should the rest of the world have to treat this delusion as reality?

We could do a better job of joining the dots for people, slowly and patiently, because people new to this generally either haven't worked through the logical conclusions, or believe they are hyperbolic and rare, or believe that those banging on about the conclusions are doing it from a place of transphobic bigotry.

Understandable, particularly when this is the line that the TRAs push.

People may need help and time in joining the dots and seeing the whole picture for themselves. I found myself nearly throwing my hands up in frustration and walking away on my first thread where I asked for sources behind the rhetoric because a lot of the responses were (I paraphrase) "Well it's just the case that men are invading women's spaces and the trans lobby is pushing drugs and surgery onto thousands of children, if you can't accept that then you're not paying attention". Which I now understand the thinking behind but it took a while. And I'm not blaming anyone for posting this either, it's MN, everyone's discussion style is different! (And i did get pointed to the GRA consultation papers which was the first step for me!)

Btw saying "we could do a better job" wasnt meant to sound critical; there are so many amazing posters on here, I was mainly talking about myself, i guess, or just the odd instances where questioners are treated with a lot of suspicion...

@truthisarevolutionaryact

Yes I am aware of that, all I'm saying is that I became aware of that long after encountering a great deal of much less useful stuff that makes it very hard for people that aren't already in the know about those things to find that sort of factual information out.

Of course, it's nobody's job to go out of their way to educate strangers, but I do see it as spectacularly unhelpful to respond to posts saying things such as "I'm really confused can someone explain it" or "is there anywhere neutral to hear both sides" with a lot of comments that don't explain anything useful and only make sense to people who already run in those circles, which is very often the case.

There's not really much point me going over it much further, I was simply saying I had a similar experience of not being able to find out any facts on the subject without finding aggression.

The reason threads like this exist asking if there is a middle ground through which to learn more is because the second you post an opinion or question that is on the fence or unsure you are immediately mocked or smugly dismissed, sending the resounding message that for whatever reason, your views were not strong enough to be respected, you would need to have a more "extreme" view to be part of the conversation - you would need to not only feel strongly about women's rights but also hate or laugh in the face of trans people in general.

That is quite a sentence there.

So what you are saying is women are not allowed to laugh at trans people, even though trans people actually threaten to kill us?

Are you aware of the saying 'men are afraid that women will laugh at them but women are afraid that men will kill them'?

What you are saying is that we have to accept that these men, who may or may not have mental health problems or fetishes have to be listened to, but because women may find their 'womaning' offensive or mock them, they cannot be taken seriously and should not be listened to. Otherwise there is no 'middle ground'?

I don't want a middle ground.
I want women and girls to have boundaries and to have safe spaces.
I want men to stop killing and raping and assaulting women and girls. That is not extreme.

I don't want to have to explain hundreds of times to people who 'don't understand' and come on here confused by the issues. Because most of them do understand the issues and are only actually looking for reactive screenshots to show how mean we all are.

By all means, keep suggesting your middle grounds. But I'm bored of people telling us to 'be nice'. Where did being 'nice' get anyone?

Novembersbean - all that is happening is that you're finding it hard to accept that this is now. Your rights have already been diminished and they're on their way out entirely. Your children, if you have any, have already had many of their safeguarding frameworks removed and are about to lose more. It's here. Now. Not "this would never happen". I understand it's hard to credit and you want to say "couldn't happen here, let's be more kumbaya about it" but you're too late.

Try this thread for just the tiniest taster of where we are:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3541908-Regulatory-capture

There is no middle ground. You either support the removing of women's rights and child safeguarding or you don't. The tsunami isn't a possibility: it's already formed and approaching the beach.

I believe:

1. Trans women are not women. I was entirely happy to treat a trans woman as a woman, pronouns etc until self id. This means that anyone who SAYS they identify as a woman IS a woman. Even if they have a beard, dress in a conventional male way. Most TW have penis and testicles. Now I am much less likely to “respect pronouns”.

1. Trans woman should not be allowed into women’s/girls spaces - eg women’s refuges, changing rooms, toilets, school toilets, school changing rooms, girl guide dorms. Nor entitled to get women only awards/ shortlists. Prior to the proposals for legal changes so that anyone who self ids as a woman, I wouldn’t have been unduly bothered. Basically the numbers of “transsexuals” were few, they’d been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and it didn’t seem an issue to me. Self Id means any old pervert can access women’s spaces, numbers are increased (look at Stonewalls list of who is considered trans).

3, No experimental puberty blockers for kids, no putting kids on T or any other hormone. No “educating” kids with nonsense like they can have a boys brain in a female body - if they have short hair, hate wearing dresses and don’t play with dolls.

1. No trans women in most women’s sport. Because it’s totally unfair to compete against women with a male body.

I have always thought that if an adult truly has gender dyshoria, had counselling, then up to them if want to “transition” and they should be able to go about their lives without fear of discrimination or harassment. Changing the law to self id will help no one, certainly not trans people either as the backlash will mean that the support for trans people previously given by women is likely to be withdrawn.

If that makes me extreme, then I guess I am. I just don’t see how it is though. It’s pure common sense NOT to want your daughter in a changing room undressing when a 6ft intact male body rocks in and starts stripping next to her.

There's not really much point me going over it much further, I was simply saying I had a similar experience of not being able to find out any facts on the subject without finding aggression.

There are literally hundreds possibly thousands of threads on this forum alone, explaining the facts.

@LangCleg I know it is happening now, and yes I have a child.

My point was purely that the discussion is rarely helpful towards people seeking out that information, which doesn't help the cause of making people aware it is happening.

@popehilarious has essentially said what I am trying to say.

I know it is happening now, and yes I have a child.

In which case, I'll ask again: what precisely is it that you are living? What is this middle ground that you are living? Because it sounds more like denial to me, sorry.

We could do a better job of joining the dots for people, slowly and patiently, because people new to this generally either haven't worked through the logical conclusions, or believe they are hyperbolic and rare, or believe that those banging on about the conclusions are doing it from a place of transphobic bigotry.

I am really not being funny, but there have been a HUGE amount of posters that have been banned from here IP address and all, for joining the dots.

Because joining the dots leads places that MNHQ do not want to go, and because the people that don't want us to join the dots target report those users and get them gone. It only takes 3 strikes and that's it. Gone. For good.

By all means, feel free to start a thread joining the dots.

When I first discovered this board I actually found the blunt, straight-to-the-point style of many posters very helpful, because I had no idea about the scale of this stuff and I wanted information about the potential impacts of self-id as the consultation was about to close.

And going back to pronouns,
'I feel sorry for Leslie because she has dysphoria, but I don't think she should use women's spaces'
...sounds a bit bigoted, doesn't it? Replace she with he, and it makes total sense.

Just wanted to say I'm still reading, still listening, v glad I posted here. I definitely have questions but I'm going to search other threads before posting because I can see some of you have been having these conversations here for a long time.

@LangCleg you're very fixated on that phrase. When I mentioned "the reality I am living" I was referring to a PP saying that it is not possible for people to have middling views on this subject.

I fear the implications of self ID to the point that I would oppose it, but I also sympathise with trans people who will have to accept hardship in their own life as a result (because there is no alternative that doesn't compromise the safety of women) and I don't share the same level of conviction as many others that they are purely delusional.

Hence, my views would be considered by most to be middling.

pope, the basics, and the patient explanation stuff is why we have the Break it down for me thread. It's certainly a good idea to being it up when newbies post questions or need clarity.
And yes, if the balance is between helping other women understand, and letting them know they have access to lots of info here that I am not in a position to outline over and over, then sure, that is a middle ground I can get on board with.