Middle ground

[HDDD]

I've been trying to follow conversations online in regard to gender critical thought, pronouns, selfID, transrights, lesbian erasure etc. And all I can find is extreme views on both sides. Is there a middle ground? Is it here? Is Twitter too toxic? I want to be informed not screamed at.

HDDD What do you think of the third space option?

Barbara - I didn't define what I meant by 'extreme views' so anyone 'patiently explaining' is doing it based on their own preconceived ideas of what I might mean.
I came here in good faith. I've explained some of my views above.
I maybe should have said 'nuanced debate' rather than middle ground as that is what I think I'm looking for.

Third space option is the only solution.
And I've watched some of Magdalen's videos and found them tricky to follow when she was responding to snippets of a video I hadn't seen from a person I had no knowledge of.

A middle ground would be for trans people to accept that they are
Transwomen not women
Transmen not men
Non binary means gender non conforming.

You know, and for transwomen and transmen to fight for third (or fourth if you take into account disabled spaces) spaces that are basically mixed sex, for all people who don't mind a mixed sex space, including sports, YHA dorms, whatever it might be, whilst retaining single sex spaces for women and men who need them.

This middle ground has been suggested by feminists since time began. The TRAs/AWA are not happy with that because they just seem to want to destroy women's rights to single sex spaces, it seems to be a thrill for them.

They had a choice.

On the assumption that the OP is posting in good faith, I think she's getting a hard time. The trouble is OP, many of us are weary with having the arguments presented as being extreme on both sides. I find it hard to accept that stating a woman doesn't have a penis is extreme or that stating that a lesbian is exclusively a same sex attraction is extreme. I regularly see women presented as being extreme yet is is apparent that while we were obeying the #nodebate instructions from trans groups, they were busy removing our rights to single sex spaces, our language, even our identity. And watching children in schools being repeatedly groomed by groups telling them that they may be born in the wrong body has resulted in me becoming intolerant of those pushing these beliefs.
If you stick around here you will find communities of compassionate, intelligent and insightful feminist women who post. Yes - at times there are 'unkind' comments - but often they are comments that challenge our female socialisation and reluctance to say no. Most of us have grown into our views as we have researched and listened and (after some false starts) taken a risk and posted. Don't be put off.

I, like 3.8 billion people today, am biologically female.
I am fundamentally distinct and irrevocably different from the rest of the human race, no matter what they do or call themselves.

I want that fact, of my existence, recognised in law.
I do not want to be forced to agree that I am fundamentally like a particular group of men such that I am forced to be grouped unwillingly with them, ever

Those men are opposed to my recognition, and to the recognition of the entire female population.

What is the middle ground between recognising that I am fundamentally different from all men, and denying it?

And is there any other section of humanity demanding recognition of their existence that you would advocate denying them, or finding a middle ground between recognising them and not recognising them?

Thank you truthisarevolutionaryact - I don't view any of those things as extreme. That's not what I was saying. Maybe I've been reading stuff from the wrong people on Twitter. I'm very sceptical about the school stuff (and that sodding gingerbread gender spectrum) and the drug pushing stuff (with no research on long term damage).
And I'm furious about gender expectations and gendered toys and clothes.

OP, you're getting a hard time, and it's because a lot of this has been played out over and over (and TRAs enjoy disrupting genuine discussion) but it's not fair on people trying to get sensible discussion/answers.
I know because I was in your place not that long ago!

I wanted (and still do!) to be kind to 'genuine' trans people. TBQH pronouns are never going to be the hill I die on, even though I agree with the 'pronouns are rohypnol' argument, so I'm already a bit more wishywashy than many women here. I recognise that a lot of the extreme TRAs that get so much attention (for being disgustingly and blatantly anti-women) don't represent all trans people so imo it's not worth focusing too much on them or their arguments. In those respects I'm sure many will disagree with me. I wanted to know what hte issues were other than 'men in women's toilets'.

I wanted to find some middle ground, but the more I hung around here and read up, read about the transing of children, that the only criterion to being a trans woman is for a male-born person to say they are, learned that what was called "whataboutery" became "that will never happen" and in turn, happened over and over again. Plus the institutional capture (police, school, guides etc) is absolutely mind-blowing.

I started from the premise that women are oppressed due to their biology and worked outwards from there - based on that alone I realised how much of the 'trans ideology' is in direct conflict.

My advice would be to work out exactly what aspects you're having issues with. Join in threads about those, or start your own. Posts by Datun and LangCleg are usually very factual and informative (there are many others!)

oh yes, and I also came from the background of thinking toys and clothes shouldn't be gendered - assuming that all proper-thinking lefty liberals would agree, but again that comes into conflict with the notion of transpeople 'I always enjoyed doing X thing' where X is a stereotype associated with the opposite sex, as though that means anything at all about gender identity!

Yes the “extremism on both sides” is a lie used to crush debate and silence women , which is why women are tired of it.
I see women wanting to have their sex based rights upheld on one side, and on the other, activists who want to remove our understanding of sex completely, and who incite and implement violence against women.
There is no nuance to be had there.
TRAs do not want third spaces, they insist that they are the actual sex they want to be, that they are completely believable as that sex, and that they belong in the single sex spaces put in place for women.
There can’t be compromise here, either we keep single sex space, or we open that space up to both sexes.
Personally I care far more about the safety of women and girls than I care about men’s feelings.

I think you're on a hiding to nothing asking such questions here. I'm probably just as bad as anyone else as I think male/female - a question of genetics. However I'm a live & let live person so don't worry about it. I remember when younger dancing the 'Gay Gordons' and watching old films where people were gay without mentioning their sexuality. I simply accept we're all different and while I find homosexuality as strange as Trans and self-iding provided people aren't using it for ulterior motives then let them get on with it. Just don't force it on me.

@popehilarious Thank you. Very useful. I'll navigate my way round and look them up.

The gay gordons had nothing to do with being gay/homosexual ! It is the original meaning of the word, as in happy and cheerful, lighthearted.

I suspect that it's not the positions of women holding onto reality that you are describing as extreme here, but the forum/media in which some are presented.

In that spirit, number one, don't just read Twitter. It's a pointless cesspit mostly. There are occasionally good threads of tweets linked by those who are happy to wade through the filth to get to them, but otherwise, don't bother.

The Break It Down For Me thread here is useful for articles and links which explain well and are helpful for sharing etc.

This forum is often one of the only places to discuss the issues without getting clobbered by an army of oddballs, but even here the guidelines are frustrating and as we've seen in the past few days, can contribute to a lot of pissed off women losing their patience with being told to moderate their tone, which is why you've had a number of pert responses here.

The question to ask yourself is this - Am I asking for a calmer discussion because I can't really understand what is going on, or because I'm a bit uncomfortable with the women involved being quite so angry at times?

Because if it's the first, there are definitely places to get some clarity, and if it's the second, maybe you should get more comfortable with the unextreme reality of women sometimes getting angry about having to say no over and over.

The 'extremism/bad behaviour on both sides' is also frequently used by politicians as a get out clause, because it allows them to admit that TRA political lobby behaviour frequently crosses the line into unacceptable while still staying on side with them by an 'oh everyone's equally to blame' approach rather than the truth.

The truth being death threats, rape threats, actual assault, intimidation, using women unwittingly or non consentingly in sexual experiences, removing the language and definition of woman and removing single sex spaces and rights to privacy on one side, and women trying to keep their currently legal rights and refusing to lie or surrender their spaces on the other.

Again, it boils down to throwing women under the bus as the easier party to offend.

Agree BeMoreMagdalen

SirVixofVixHill Of course if didn't mean refer to their sexuality (Gay Gordons) just referring back to when I was younger before the terms changed. Even now when someone mentions being gay the first thing I think of is happy then I have to remember its all changed. The way words have changed so quickly is a nightmare. I don't keep up to date on all the terminology and I'm sure cause offense by not using the pc terms. I've looked at some of the posts on these issues and tbh half the time have no idea what people are talking about.

Here's the 'break it down for me' thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

BigFatLiar oh I see, I misunderstood you. I use the word gay in both senses. I have started using homosexual more now that there is this insistence that gay people are “same gender attracted”. 🙄

Two questions for you, OP:

Should women a) have the same rights they have now or b) should they have fewer rights than they have now?

Should child safeguarding a) remain as it is or b) be diluted?

If you answered A to either of those, you are an extremist.

@LangCleg I am indeed A - and I'm regretting the wording of my opener. I should have said I am looking for rational discussion, questions, answers, listening and nuance - in a safe space. The Break it down for me thread is enlightening.

I remember dancing the Gay Gordons and Strip the Willow... Scottish country dancing lessons
misses the point of the thread completely......

OP - it's all a learning experience. I have learnt so much on here about this and many other related issues. It can be a bit painful at times. But people are very generous with their knowledge and insights, especially when they recognise that someone's on a journey....

I can see now why I had some snarky comments. It's all been said/discussed (I'm on page 6 of the break it down for me thread). I just didn't know where to find it.
Thanks all.

Lang summed it up perfectly. Many of us come into this thinking there must be a middle ground, especially if we haven't really been engaged with the feminist movement for a while (or ever). We think gosh isn't there a lot of shouting, there must be compromises to be made here if everyone would just calm down. You go online, you look for debate and discussion and you then start to get attacked for even asking the question. And at the point you realise you are holding the "extreme" view.

Please excuse some of the somewhat exasperated comments on here. Women who have been doing this for a very long time are just tired of defending a position where we want to support people to be who they want to be, alongside preserving women and girls safety, privacy and dignity, against accusations of extremism.

Have you seen www.safeschoolsallianceuk.org? Take a look, we are looking at this from a safeguarding in schools point of view.