Bunbury's guide to community disruptors part 4

[BarbaraStrozzi]

Thought it was time for another of these. I'll just cut-and-paste the opening of the last thread:

The useful Bunbury Guide to Spotting Community Disruptors is constantly evolving.

The best research and advice is not to engage with community disruptors and trolls. As ever, if you suspect troll activity, report it to MNHQ.

This is a continuation of the first Public Service Announcement thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3438714-Bunbury-s-Public-Service-Announcement-2

Thread 3 was deleted with this note from MNHQ; We're sure there will be a Bunbury 4 around soon, but we'd be grateful if we could draw a line under the issues raised in this thread if there's to be a new one.

If and when you see threads plopped into FWR, especially a curious repeat of well worn topics, maybe check for poster history before engaging.

There are a number of posts/posters/threads that are reproduced on Twitter or Facebook to foment controversy using screen shots & flagging to either MNHQ to have threads or posters deleted. Sometimes, it’s used to approach commissioning editors with ideas for articles. It’s a tiresome tactic that we’ve had several community disruptor posters who themselves post the comments that they then highlight elsewhere as purported evidence of racism, religious intolerance, anti-men sentiments, or transphobia.

Some helpful links can be found in the first posts on thread 2 (linked above) but in essence FermatsTheorem recommended “that in the absence of a block/hide poster button, I suggest the following strategy (given that you're talking to the lurkers).

Do not name check the sealion. Instead, respond to a depersonalised paraphrase:

"It is sometimes erroneously suggested that blah. Blah is wrong for the following reasons (short and pithy). If you need more information re. debunking blah, here's a link."

Then (this next step is important to combat derailment) go back up thread to the last useful contribution to the discussion, make sure you do name check that contributor, and pick up the discussion from that point.”

Bunbury has mentioned that there are some remarkable examples of whataboutery in play at present - and of well worn topics that have been discussed at some length.

A slow takeover by the Disney bunch.

Soon or later this place will fall of course, but hopefully there is another year or two first.

Bunbury is possibly wondering about an influx of new posters after the shout out to MN on Woman's Hour.

Bunbury authors and collective - is there a perceived need for an addition to the guide that covers purity spirals?

Also thinking fo what Bunbury would make of the argument that you can't 'nice' your way out of being trolled on social media:

twitter.com/moorehn/status/1154395174946168835

I like the speculations about whether it's feasible to disincentivize trolling or, in the context of this board, community disruption.

Also thinking fo what Bunbury would make of the argument that you can't 'nice' your way out of being trolled on social media

Have to say I always attempt to be "fair and reasonable"...it's my preferred style of communication or argument. But sometimes it seems the more reasoned you are; the more effort you put in......the more it can make you a target for reporting and trolling.

If you can't be simply dismissed as being "shouty or sweary".. or automatically hostile, then that can be perceived as more threatening - because fairness, logic and reason cannot be dismissed in similar ways. You get strung along....and then the reporting starts.

I like the speculations about whether it's feasible to disincentivize trolling

How can that best be achieved?

There’s a flat earth thread about people who believe crazy anti-science things.

I’m sitting on my hands I tell ya!

Bunbury's seminal work is about community disruptors.

Does Bunbury have a sister or wise friend with advice about refusing to use the language of some activists that frames disputes and disagreements in particular ways? Eg: - the story that a young woman in the USA is 'suing to block transgender athletes from participating in sports'. The young woman is suing to protect women's sports. Nobody has any interest in deterring others from competing in their appropriate sex class competitions.

Reason being that these girls aren't suing to "block participation of transgender athletes", they are suing to ensure that transgender athletes compete in their correct sex class like everyone else has to. It's really important that we don't slip into transactivist language because they frame being treated like everyone else as a denial of rights and they use phrases like "blocked", "barred", etc to do this

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3823024-Girls-in-US-sue-to-block-participation-of-transgender-athletes

Is it past time that we control our own narrative in the war on women?

That’s an excellent point Arran. I’d love to know Bunburys views on this.

A basic issue for me is the use of tr*ns women, tr*nswomen and men who identify as trans. Some of these words are banned and not others. But those who ban them are seeking to impose a particular religious/
ideological viewpoint on others.

Yeah arran. Time to,take back language

I never heard Harry’s chat with the guy on 5pm radio 4. But saw some stuff on twitter about harry asking him not to call him anti trans.

Cos he wasn’t

Yes, I was talking to an excellent woman this week who challenged an elected official publicly about what he would do to protect single sex provision, and he replied "Is this the trans issue?" and she replied quickly "No, this is a women's issue".

It is so important to keep our focus. People love to get us distracted, and focus on women takes deliberate effort because we are trained from birth not to do it. Bunbury advises to say, and say often, that the wedge issues used to damage women's liberation are frankly, irrelevant, and it is important to keep the liberation of women at the centre of the narrative.

Oh, and btw, someone who often begs for a bouncy ball and plenty of fish is really, really desperate for them again... let's not oblige.

I've been thinking about this a lot since Pragna Patel's stirring speech at #WomensLib2020.

Just when the world has reached a dangerous moment in history, teetering on the edge of democracy, waves of ordinary, marginalised and poor women are rising up to demand economic equality and justice and to prevent their leaders from ripping up well-crafted democratic constitutions borne out of long and painful struggles for freedom. Showing immense resilience and courage they are assuming leadership in defence of key principles of secularism, democracy and equality tied to state accountability for gender justice. These are nascent movements and we do not know where they will lead but they give us hope.
...
I believe that throughout the world, a new kind of feminism is stirring even in the midst of fear and terror. Women are naming and shaming, they are occupying public spaces, organising rallies and sit-ins and draping themselves with the symbols of peace, unity and justice. They are in brief, holding power to account. It is exciting and invigorating. It both reaffirms the rights of women and reminds us of the values that we have to nurture and uphold if feminism is to triumph. Now is the time to join these new struggles and to fulfil our collective feminist destiny whilst at the same time pay tribute to the feminist freedom fighters and defenders of human rights and democracy who have gone before us and to whom we owe an immense debt of gratitude.

womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/03/50-years-of-womens-liberation-in-the-uk-pragna-patel/

We don't need to accept that framing - and perhaps we need to actively resist and replace it because it's harming women. It's harming wider society but it's harming women.

Is that Dad poster the charmer who came on here a while back and threw an epic tantrum saying that he was going to donate money to a some women's charity or other but wasn't going to now because we were such nasty women? Or is it another one?

It's odds-on it's that poster GCAcademic. I suppose it was inevitable that today's events would tempt them out of the woodwork.

You know I read about the suffragettes. And their struggles and courage

I thought it was history.

But shit here we are again.
I also,read about women who campaigned against women suffragettes
I really found it hard to understand

But it’s happening again now

Bunbury has an instinctive distrust of New Posters or Name Changes that involve the OP continually protesting their naivety and open-eyedness about various issues.

Bunbury sometimes has to be on guard against default cynicism. OTOH...

Bunbury also says there's always a rush of this when something has happened to make them feel on the back foot.

Bunbury notes the legal cavalry is here 🙄

I am conditioned to make a certain type of frowny face when I see the phrase 'genuinely confused'....

I trust the research on community disruption - I know others don't.

I experimented with participation recently and felt it to be a huge waste of my time and the thread was removed anyway.

About to experiment again. Feeling pessimistic. Not a rigorous scientific method but the best that I can do.

Arran, you referred above to a thread I recently started:

"Does Bunbury have a sister or wise friend with advice about refusing to use the language of some activists that frames disputes and disagreements in particular ways? Eg: - the story that a young woman in the USA is 'suing to block transgender athletes from participating in sports'. The young woman is suing to protect women's sports. Nobody has any interest in deterring others from competing in their appropriate sex class competitions."

As you may have noted, following suggestions on that thread, I asked MN to change the name of the thread title; the title has now been changed.

The point you make about framing language from a GC rather than TRA perspective is one I have made myself many times previously, eg in my OP here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3777544-Slogans

That said, it can happen to the best of us when posting in a hurry.

I hope you are not implying I am a 'community disrupter' - after 17 years on MN, I'd like to think I no longer count as an entryist. But if I do, well, fuckit.

xxyzz Yes, I had noticed.

No, I wasn't referring to you other than to agree with posters on that thread.

And - no. I'm surprised you thought otherwise.

You did refer to my post directly on a thread about community disruptors!

But thanks for clarifying.

On this busy busy board and at a time when #nodebate appears to be well and truly buried, stay safe sisters - as we all know, there's no guarantee that every poster is who they say they are.