Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Male desire for humiliation as 'female'.

43 replies

BeMoreMagdalen · 05/09/2019 10:18

I'd like to discuss this pertinent feminist issue. What is behind the common sexual narrative of 'sissification' among certain men that directly correlates to an attitude that being a woman is 'less' than a man, and derives pleasure from that sense of humiliation? What are the ways in which this harms women?

OP posts:
hoodathunkit · 06/09/2019 12:27

Tyrotoxicity

I am in agreement with your concerns. There is always a risk with any legislation that aims to protect the vulnerable that it will be used against real victims.

I do not think that we should just give up though. I think we should try to think this through and try to imagine what legislation would look like and think straegically about how to reduce the risk of it being misused.

It distresses me greatly that vulnerable people have been abused and continue to be abused because of the limited imagination and experience of legislators.

FlyingOink · 06/09/2019 16:51

Suddenly occurred to me - there's a big similarity between humiliation/agp fantasies in men and what we call rape fantasies in women, isn't there? Both hinge on 'abuse=sexy' and 'submission=sexy', and in both the fantasist is entirely in control and gets to choose the things they submit to, which means they're not really fantasising about something non-consensual at all.
It's worse, because women who have rape fantasies are aware that the reality is different. Men who fantasise about being sissified, or who have degrading violent sex, may not be physically harmed and so their understanding of and empathy concerning sexual violence is lessened. It's not just an agp thing, gay men do it with "fuckpigs" too. There's obviously a risk of rectal damage and infection, but let's not get into rosebuds and bug chasers. The voluntary aspect of submitting like that (as it isn't the default for men and men aren't raised to believe it is) I think means less psychological damage also.

I'd argue that men who are violent in bed, believing their "dom" tendencies make them somehow more advanced sexually, also have reduced empathy for victims of sexual violence. Self-justification and emotional numbing from porn help with this.
Women who have rape fantasies don't lose empathy for rape victims as a result.

In a purely pragmatic way, it makes sense for an agp to train himself into being sexually receptive to other men. In that way he can indulge himself sexually, as there are more indiscriminate men willing to fuck him. He is validated as a sexual object and gains physical and psychological pleasure from it, which compounds the link between sissy/sub and woman in his brain. It's also perfectly possible for him to meet men online for sex whilst still having a wife at home and/or being primarily attracted to women and seeking to penetrate them. I think the invention of a new persona, new name, new costume can help an agp man to dissociate from himself completely, hence making becoming a sissy on the side much easier. The power of sissy hypno porn and the ready availability of male sex partners is massive, especially for men who were never Casanova to start with.

BogglesGoggles · 06/09/2019 16:55

I would imagine it can be harmful to their sexual partners. They’re left with the option of carrying at a (rather unpalatable) fetish or being left/told they aren’t a loving partner/being cheated on etc. Fetishes aren’t great unless both people are into them.

FlyingOink · 06/09/2019 17:39

Fetishes aren’t great full stop. Erotic target location errors aren't positive. They can control the lives of the (mostly) men who have them. I'm not talking about preferences or interests, but fetishes. They aren't good to have and we shouldn't pretend they are.
When we see someone who refuses to eat anything that isn't sausage and chips (like the teenager who went blind recently as a result of restrictive diet) we recognise that is a problem. Likewise, if a man is fixated on feet, to the point of getting himself in legal trouble by photographing feet, obsessing about foot fetish porn, buying smelly old shoes on eBay to masturbate with - this isn't a well person. And although a foot fetish is treated as a lightweight, almost funny fetish, in many cases it seriously restricts that man and his interpersonal relations.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 06/09/2019 17:45

that's a really interesting poin flyingoink, calling fetishes an 'erotic target location error'

that's a very helpful way of thinking about BDSM. Somehow violence has become arousing for some people, when, quite obviously, it really shouldn't be

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 06/09/2019 17:46

I think BDSM has become so normalised I'd almost forgotten this - I think society has too

FlyingOink · 06/09/2019 17:53

I think I got the phrase from Blanchard.
Where autogynephilia = erotic target location error.

FlyingOink · 06/09/2019 18:08

Somehow violence has become arousing for some people
If you're doling out the violence, it's instant gratification. The look of fear, the howl of pain, it's there straight away. You can "level up" on various pain-causing moves, like a video game. You can go to workshops to learn how to pierce/electroshock/whip correctly. It's a consumer culture, you can buy incredibly expensive paraphernalia. And there is an enormous library of porn to get you going.

If you're the one being beaten, you can internalise all your self-image issues, measure your worth through how much you can withstand, accept affection within the very specific boundaries of post-scene "aftercare" (when you have truly earned that affection) and there is an enormous library of porn to get you going.

It's actually simplifying sexual interactions to aggressor and victim. It makes me laugh to think that BDSM practitioners consider themselves to be in some way sexually advanced, when all they are doing is negotiating a one-sided fight and getting off on it. All roleplay and play-acting is similar although most is not as damaging and not as compulsive. I understand the desire to be "someone else" sexually from time to time, but if you're always someone else then you and your partner aren't having sex with each other really, are you? The more pomp and circumstance and fetishwear and props and contract-writing involved, the less intimacy.

And despite BDSM practitioners being keen to emphasise the importance of rules, there doesn't appear to be much in the way of self-regulation in "communities" and obviously zero regulation with regard to a lone wolf male who just likes the idea of battering or choking the woman he's in bed with (apparently not Ghomeshi, not at all).

BeMoreMagdalen · 06/09/2019 20:08

Just to say thanks to the posters engaging here - I haven't plopped this, but I'm suddenly very RL busy and unable to join in as much as I would like.

OP posts:
BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 06/09/2019 20:28

You can go to workshops to learn how to pierce/electroshock/whip correctly

christ on a bike. there are people who are sexually gratified by giving electrical shocks to others. grim, grim, grim

anyway, that was a bit of a derail. sorry

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 06/09/2019 20:30

sorry, still processing this

I think the point for me is we're all encouraged to think a bit of spanking in the bedroom is normal. but it's on a spectrum isn't it? with doling out or receiving electric shocks somewhere further down the line.

FlyingOink · 06/09/2019 21:20

It's less grim than knife play
bdsmwiki.info/Knife_play
Or the piercing thing, needle play
bdsmwiki.info/Needle_Play

And seeing as I just found that website, here's one I never knew existed
bdsmwiki.info/Category:Fire_Play

Electric shocks seem lovely compared to a that. Sad

Tyrotoxicity · 07/09/2019 09:51

if you're always someone else then you and your partner aren't having sex with each other really, are you?

This.

It was a problem with agp ex. As time went on and I learnt more about his fetishes and thus more about precisely what he was getting off on during our sexual interactions, it became increasingly clear to me that, while I wanted us to be having sex with each other, he was in fact having sex with a fantasy in his head that he was mentally superimposing on my body.

The intimate connection I needed wasn't there, because there was no attempt to establish it on his part - because my mind, my thoughts and feelings, my self, was irrelevant to the proceedings. So long as my body put on the performance he needed, he was happy.

It was soul-destroying.

hoodathunkit · 07/09/2019 13:10

As part of my research into hysteria and psychosomatic conditions I was researching a condition, ulcerative colitis, which has long been associated in the literature with hysterical conversion and psychological factors.

During my professional training I read a paper in which a patient presenting with severe ulcerative colitis and mysterious rectal injuries
had been discovered to be damaging herself during dissociative / amnesiac states via rectal masturbation with dangerous objects.

I have not yet been able to find that case study, however I did find an even more disturbing case study with even more severe injuries and behaviour. I will be posting about this later

I digress

During my research I found a rather dated but still fascinating academic paper that contains an interesting case study involving a “sissy” male patient.

I am really pushed for time but am C&Ping it here in case it is of use to anyone, especially any readers interested in the mind/body issue as it relates to sexuality and gender identity

Here it is (emphasis mine)

Psychophysiological Correlations
in Ulcerative Colitis
AARON KARUSH, M.D, ROBERT B. HIATT, M.D.,
and GEORGE E. DANIELS, M.D

Case 4

The patient was a 27-year-old man, unmarried,
and a practicing lawyer. He was precise, neat,
and a man of obviously superior intelligence, who
related his story in the first interview in an
orderly, logical fashion. His manner was delib-
erate, ingratiating, and detached, with no real
emotion apparent at this time. He had suffered
from ulcerative colitis for six years, with symp-
toms of diarrhea, bloody stools, and some abdom-
inal pain. He had received medical treatment and
a brief period of psychiatric help at another
hospital. His previous psychiatric experience had
increased his anxiety. He described his "central
psychological problem" as that of "dependency."
Suffering strong feelings of "social inferiority,"
he had been unable to establish any heterosexual
relationship, and expressed fears lest he be homo-
sexual.

The mother was a strong, domineering woman
about whom the family life revolved. The father
was a withdrawn, anxious man, completely de-
pendent upon his wife. The patient had always
been attached to his mother, and was hostile
toward and contemptuous of his father. He also
felt strongly competitive with his elder brother,
but considered himself hopelessly inferior.

Throughout his life the patient had been pre-
occupied with a host of physical ailments and
accidents. In his first four years he had pneu-
monia, a mild case of poliomyelitis, and a number
of other minor illnesses. He stammered until the
age of 15. He was a fussy eater, unable to touch
any fat on meat. Until the age of 7 he slept in
his parents' room.

A sensitive child who cried easily, he was
considered a "sissy." He began to make a fetish
of his intellectual ability, feeling this to be his
only claim to importance. Intensely ambitious,
he felt unable to impress anyone, and at 12
began to withdraw from his friends when he
found that they had interests in which he could
not participate. He felt a kind of pride and
martyrdom in not asking for the things that other
boys had. When he became aware of the hetero-
sexual interests of his friends, his withdrawal
from them became complete.

At 20, after an aunt suffered a psychotic
breakdown, he began to fear mental illness in
himself, and shortly afterward had his first epi-
sode of rectal bleeding, without diarrhea. From
the age of 20 to the time of his treatment,
he had frequent homosexual impulses toward
friends, which he controlled with guilt and
anxiety. His rectal bleeding and diarrhea con-
tinued with an occasional brief remission.
When he appeared for treatment, his acute
symptoms had begun to subside, and psycho-
therapy continued for a period of one year. It
was after some four months of therapy that the
recordings were made.

From the diagnostic point of view he displayed a paranoid trend without delusional formation, a schizoid personality, and very strong passive trends. Despite his homosexual impulse, he could involve himself with women, but there too, only to enjoy the passive role. As was later revealed, this passivity covered tremendous hostility and contempt toward the female partner.

There were a fairly large number of recordings
made with this particular patient. The one de-
scribed in this report was selected only because
it revealed in rather typical fashion his associa-
tions during the hour. From the start he was
somewhat tense and anxious, expressing "con-
fusion" about the previous week's discussion,
during which he had consciously suppressed his
anger at the therapist after an interpretation of
his homosexual fantasies, an interpretation the
patient vigorously denied. Nevertheless he had
been depressed by the comment and his own
violent response.

He went on to relate his last sexual experience in which he lost his potency and became acutely anxious. The impotence was a reaction to the girl's demand for a trivial service and his own resentful compliance, which was followed by an outburst of anger at her. She had also complained of pain during coitus and of lack of satisfaction during the act. During this recitation, which was given with great calm, there was but minimal activity in the colon. He then went on to discuss his fear of the vagina as a "castrating machine" which he feared and was reluctant to fondle. He discussed all this with a great deal of intellectualization and little emotional display.

How-
ever, after brief hesitation, in which the therapist
remained silent, he related two dreams that had
occurred during the night of his described ex-
perience with the girl. In the first he was having
coitus with his younger sister, and in the second,
which he related at the beginning of an out-
burst of strong colonic activity, he was under-
going a surgical operation upon his penis for
the removal of a piece of tissue—too much was
removed and his penis fell apart completely.
During his discussion of this dream, the co-
lonic activity increased sharply. He then went
on to say that he must have been thinking really
of the therapist who was to have replaced his
damaged penis. The therapist, however, had
"compelled" him to expose himself to the dangers
of relations with women as part of the treat-
ment. The therapist remarked that the patient
feared his own inability to cope with the situa-
tion, feared he would lose control, and suffer
injury. For that reason he delegated to the thera-
pist the powers that would help him in turn
perform sexually. When pressed for associations
about the incest dream, he denied having any,
but suddenly felt a strong urge to urinate. He
then went on to recall his curiosity about his
sister's sexual experience in her marriage—day-
dreams in which he identified with her. He
had similar fantasies of the coital experiences
of his mother, with the additional thought that
it was she who was more sexually aggressive than
his father. During this period the bowel had
sporadic bursts of strong activity. Toward the
end of the interview he revealed his conscious
fear of losing his sanity as a consequence of sex-
ual transgression.

He hated women who tempted him sexually, but on the other hand, their weakness invited his sexual abuse, which satisfied both sexual desire and rage at being put in so dangerous a position. And finally, his sexualachievement permitted him to derive an illusory feeling of equality with the more envied, stronger men in his life.

Throughout this interview there was intense
vasoconstriction. When this is compared with
tracings taken of other patients with more acute
involvement, one cannot help being struck by
a striking difference in vascular behavior. In the
acute and subacute stages, any emotionally-dis-
turbing ideas, conscious or unconscious, would
tend to provoke vasodilatation, particularly in
response to fear. During a remission, however,
the predominant response was vasoconstriction.

source:

webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:gQ4ZzOjKOCQJ:citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.542.8709%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari

This is one of countless data shares I find and I just don't have time to to either share or examine them all. I just thought that this might be validating and helpful for some readers.

FlyingOink · 07/09/2019 13:11

So long as my body put on the performance he needed, he was happy.
I suspect this is the key. And that with endemic porn use in boys from age 9, will become the default for most young women.
Sad

CatalogueUniverse · 07/09/2019 13:51

Hoodathunkit v interesting.

Sounds like alexithymia and poor interoception. Often co-morbid with autistic spectrum but can also be associated with trauma.

CatalogueUniverse · 07/09/2019 14:04

Similarity to rape fantasies in women? I’ve read up on why women have rape fantasies (long time ago so a bit blurry). Consensus seemed to be a choreographed rape fantasy by women was to allow her to experience what she wanted sexually without the patriarchal staining of slut attached to women who have sexual desires. “Rape” takes away the woman’s culpability and ownership of the act.

Sissification could be the desire to be dominated but by dressing as a woman it disassociates it from the persons own identity. It’s the persona doing it.

It’s all patriarchy/toxic gender role related I guess.

youkiddingme · 05/01/2020 20:43

When I was younger I used to fantasise about being seduced by strong passionate men. Not quite rape fantasies but in the same vein. No doubt whatsoever in my mind it was because I had been brought up as 'a good catholic girl' who didn't want to be seen as a slut, complicated with shame from sexual abuse. I was also attracted to all the wrong kind of men for the same reasons. And when I did take the lead in sex I used to fantasise that we were being watched, by men, so of course I was really doing it for the pleasure of men ('as it should be' in my mind at that time).
Absolutely it was about not owning my own desires.
Makes total sense to me that the more someone, male or female, feels that their desires are unacceptable, but wants them anyway, the more they would find a way to disown and dissociate from those desires.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread