Debbie Hayton in the Times today

[Igneococcus]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/we-trans-women-should-compete-only-against-men-h0wj77f7x?shareToken=f73fdd7518558995018c6d0f180638f3

Can't see it shared yet but might be in one of the sports threads already.

Yes, that does help me see what you mean. I appreciate you taking the time to spell it out. 

I don't really want flowers. Would you consider my exclusion from feminist spaces to be a price worth paying to enable my ex to validate your opinions?

No, of course not.

Thanks Purported, made me think about it some more and for me it comes down to the feeling I’d rather have men working to dismantle the patriarchy from within as opposed to the ‘we are with women’. The applaud the ally scenario just comes across as men coming to the rescue (to me anyway) when it is what should be expected of men, it brings home the fact that the bar is often set too low.

I've just been looking at the comments. They're brilliant.

Immediately followed by a flash memory of the haunted shell shocked face of Mrs H in that video interview.

I do think this is more important than DH's views. Men should be listening to women like Navratilova and Davies about women's sports,

Yet we still have people here referring to DH as she and her and at the same time thinking DH will be listened to more seriously because they are male.

It's best to concentrate on the issue. I really don't care what people think about me. However, I do care about womens sport and I worry that it's in peril. If the DDR was willing to dope children then heaven knows how far repressive regimes will go to exploit the trans loophole. Times change but people don't.

My piece added to the debate by making a credible argument with appropriate facilities and separate record keeping, TW could compete alongside men. I'm not sure thar a woman could defend that point as well as I can.

Yes, I'm male but I can't help that. However, regarding the Times, the main commentator by far on gender issues has been Janice Turner who speaks as a woman from the perspective of a woman. And writes very well.

I don't comment on my private life in public fora. I do in private groups (and sometimes things get leaked) but Im concerned about the privacy of those around me.

My piece added to the debate by making a credible argument with appropriate facilities and separate record keeping, TW could compete alongside men.

Why should men who choose to impact their performance due to a lifestyle choice which involves performance-reducing drugs be treated any differently from other men who choose to impact their performance due to other lifestyle choices such as smoking or drinking or just not training hard enough?

My piece added to the debate by making a credible argument with appropriate facilities and separate record keeping, TW could compete alongside men. I'm not sure thar a woman could defend that point as well as I can.

Hmm. Well TW are men so should compete against other men rather than against women. This is because TW are not women and should not take women's places in sports,

Written by a woman. What's better about your words Hayton? The mere fact you are male or the fact you are male makes you better at arguing?

Is this much like me being told "girls can't do physics!" years ago. I doubt anyone said that to you as strangely enough they saw your sex not your magical gender identity.

Could compete? No, should compete within their biological class.
Maybe your next article could be about the potential demise of men’s sports, with mediocre players switching sides for easy glory there will be increasing pressure at the top. Boys growing up and looking for male role models need to see players of all abilities playing sports. They should not be learning that they can identify into medal positions.

Written by a woman. What's better about your words Hayton? The mere fact you are male or the fact you are male makes you better at arguing?

If trans rights activists are arguing for trans women to be able to compete against natal women it seems obvious to me that a trans woman arguing against that must have some force.

My piece added to the debate by making a credible argument with appropriate facilities and separate record keeping

No. Your piece rehashed what we women have been saying for weeks, months and years.
You really should suggest women talk about what dangers they face when faced with men. Be it in sport, sex segregated facilities or our everyday life.

My piece added to the debate by making a credible argument with appropriate facilities and separate record keeping

The piece I read pointed out the obvious, transwomen retain male advantages then demanded separate facilities and record keeping with no arguments I could see just see a patronising paternalistic statement about doing it for your daughters not envy

Best part about the article are the comments, (in amongst the fawning) there are a lot of comments stating the obvious ie. Transwomen are [sadly actual 3 letter word has to be redacted because I'm not allowed to say here but it's the biological fact]

I'm not sure that a woman could defend that point as well as I can.

Navratilova or Davies do it better already as they are experienced women in sport defending the right to single sex sport provision for female athletes that lose a lot if they speak out themselves.

Selina Soule says it better already as she loses a hell of a lot of she doesn't speak out. Her future is already compromised.

Personally I think many of us here would defend that point better than you Debbie. You have nothing to lose by speaking out. It's not your sport, your career, your family, your future.

You speak from a transwoman's perspective, not a woman's perspective and the platform you have is because you are a transwoman.

I welcome anyone to defend the rights of women... men, women, unicorns...lord knows we need the numbers...but if a unicorn stood up and said that he was better at defending women's rights than me, knows more about what will be lost, understands it better because he is a unicorn, then I would question his motivation for being there.

I think sometimes we like to grasp on to the “saner” sounding trans identified males, especially the ones that willingly accept they are male . However in doing so we do often overlook the fact that they 1. Often take credit for what women have already said en masse. 2. Are often equally as fascinated with the trans community as they are the GC community. 3. Still subscribe to the innately misogynistic idea that “woman” is something you can dress as or identify as.

1. Forget that if we embrace the trans identified male, there’s very often a trans widow who’s left on her own.

Great point, Empress.

Thanks Eresh.

Hugely impressed by the Times moderation stance on this article. They’re actually letting people be honest.

Why should men who choose to impact their performance due to a lifestyle choice which involves performance-reducing drugs

Having children is an example of lifestyle choice. Prescribed hormones and surgery is medical treatment for a condition listed in ICD11.

There are many men who have to have medical and/or surgical treatments which impact their performance for a whole host of conditions. In some cases it may lower their testosterone. These men aren't allowed to compete against women. A subset of conditions may allow them to be eligible for various Paralympic classes, but by no means all.

Women are not impaired men.

Prescribed hormones and surgery is medical treatment for a condition listed in ICD11.

Under 'Conditions related to sexual health'. The WHO is another organisation that has been captured by this ideology. In ICD-10 it was listed under mental and behavioural disorders.

Regardless of whether this is considered an illness or a lifestyle choice, the most important point is this:
Women are not impaired men.