Debbie Hayton in the Times today

[Igneococcus]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/we-trans-women-should-compete-only-against-men-h0wj77f7x?shareToken=f73fdd7518558995018c6d0f180638f3

Can't see it shared yet but might be in one of the sports threads already.

I'm glad they've got this article published because nobody can say 'look it's all those angry feminists again being bigoted and hateful!' but agree with everyone about how frustrating it is that we all get ignored when we point this stuff out whilst men are told they are 'showing common sense' and are 'the voice of reason.' I keep seeing conservative blokes online say "lol this is the feminists fault, where are they all now!" on videos and articles about us losing our rights. It's infuriating that we keep trying to speak up but repeatedly get silenced. They also don't understand that this is the fault of liberal feminists and we have been against it for years. They don't understand that not all feminists agree. Having said, that, even if these conservative blokes heard us they'd still probably find a way to blame feminists since it's their favourite thing to do and they don't care that we are not one homogenous group.

All forks and no spoons in your drawer? Must be a feminist who did it
No where to park? That'll be because of the feminists
Nothing to watch on tv? You get the idea...

In the end, as long as we retain our rights, that's what matters most.

I wonder why some people are willing to listen to trans widows when their experiences are kept on dedicated threads, but less willing to listen to them when their unique experiences are more broadly applied?

TinselAngel I'm in full agreement with you. Every time I see DH name or picture I'm reminded of their wife in Stella O'Malleys documentary and DHs absolute obliviousness to her pain because what DH wanted was the priority and everyone else's needs came after that.

Quite so Spartacus, anybody thinking certain women should hush on this topic for the sake of the greater good, is completely missing the point.

In my view it’s not that any one person’s voice carries more weight or is of greater importance. It’s recognising that different audiences pay attention to a variety of voices.

We are all rather more likely to listen to “people like us”. I personally pay attention to educated female voices, especially when those people are also older working mothers whose experience resonates with my own.
What I consider to be powerful wise words from say Janice Turner, though, may have only a limited impact on a young male with different life experience.

We need to reach a lot of people. Let’s have a lot of people delivering our message.

We’d all agree that women’s voices are constantly sidelined on this issue and multiple other issues in the media. 100%.
Saying that, The Times, almost uniquely in the news media, has a good record both on employing gender critical women journalists and on covering these issues. I’d also agree that they could focus on women’s experience and views more.

But this particular article with the title ’We trans women should only compete against men’, could not have been written by a woman. This article will speak to some people specifically because it is written by a transwoman. So in this specific instance it is helpful and I don’t think it is taking away from women’s voices, even though I also want to be given more women’s voices on this topic and on hundreds of other issues by national newspapers and broadcasters.

..this particular article with the title ’We trans women should only compete against men’, could not have been written by a woman. This article will speak to some people specifically because it is written by a transwoman. So in this specific instance it is helpful and I don’t think it is taking away from women’s voices, even though I also want to be given more women’s voices on this topic and on hundreds of other issues by national newspapers and broadcasters.

Agreed 100%.

Starting to wonder why I bother but I'll say it again anyway- when you centre late transitioners in feminist discourse you are excluding their female relatives.

I agree with you @TinselAngel. I do not believe Hayton is any kind of friend or ally of women and girls.

I agree as well. I can't forget his wifes face either.

Worth repeating

when you centre late transitioners in feminist discourse you are excluding their female relatives

Any supporters of DH needs to watch that documentary and watch Hayton's wife and decide if Hayton is someone who cares about women

Being 'transgender' is antithetical to being 'gender critical'. We need to have a logical position to make any headway, and this isn't logical

Isn't the problem that you (general you) "gender critical" feminists have is that apart from yourselves almost no-one gives a fig about being "gender- critical" . If you stopped 100 people at random in the street and asked them what "gender critical" means I wonder how many blank stares you'd get?

Articles like this , written by a trans woman, are effective to , one might call it, a lay audience, because they are written without jargon and by an actual trans person.

Too many blokes making decisions about trans participation in sport witter on about ‘inclusivity’, implying that the brave sportswomen, who have spoken up, are somehow purposefully ‘exclusive’ and thus ‘phobic’.

Debbies article is well written, though says things that many GC people have already said. The big advantage for the Times, and indeed for the argument, is that a transwoman’s argument cannot be so easily dismissed. This is not Debbie’s fault. Instead we should be blaming policy makers in rugby, cricket etc, who seem so desperate to appear woke, to the extent that they are ignoring intelligent and informed women, and not engaging their own brains.

Isn't the problem that you (general you) "gender critical" feminists have is that apart from yourselves almost no-one gives a fig about being "gender- critical" .

Are you sure of that? Are you saying that most people think that we should all have to adhere to rigid gender stereotypes?

Articles like this , written by a trans woman, are effective to , one might call it, a lay audience, because they are written without jargon and by an actual trans person.

This isn't a lay audience.

I thought it was an excellent article and I am happy to have Debbie put her point of view forward. I have heard many women speak on the subject, it's useful to have a transwoman adding their opinion.

I do not believe Hayton is any kind of friend or ally of women and girls.

I just don't understand the need for people to keep making personal attacks on other anti-Genderist voices. There seems to be a plethora of moans about anyone (mostly women) who speak up. Why do we bite?

I don't like everything that some GC feminists do, let alone the right wing commentators, but I recognise that I don't actually know their motivation and that any voice opposing the powerful Genderist lobby has value.

I do get the value in focusing the discussion on women's voices- so why do we derail every thread with this debate? Surely it's better to either discuss the article (well argued, nothing new) or ignore it?

SpartacusAutisticus
I'm not a 'gender critical feminist' because j think 'gender critical' is a ridiculous and meaningless term, but it's what lots of people use

Sort of proves my point then- you used the term although you personally think it's meaningless.

Are you sure of that? Are you saying that most people think that we should all have to adhere to rigid gender stereotypes?

That isn't what I said. I said I suspect that if you asked people at random if they were "gender critical" you'd get blank stares. It's jargon.

This isn't a lay audience

Who isn't? The band of sisters on here all or mainly agreeing with each other? No of course you aren't. But the average reader of The Times isn't part of your select few.

Why do we bite?

Because I'm passionate that the female relatives of late transitioners shouldn't be excluded from feminist spaces.

There are some good comments - e.g. whoever Gradgrind is, I applaud her. And some useful publicity for A Woman's Place and FairPlay.