Debbie Hayton in the Times today

[Igneococcus]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/we-trans-women-should-compete-only-against-men-h0wj77f7x?shareToken=f73fdd7518558995018c6d0f180638f3

Can't see it shared yet but might be in one of the sports threads already.

Like it or not the trans allies are part of the problem.

I would also rather hear from women on this issue. In particular I'd like Debbie's wife to be able to access female spaces, including feminism.

makemorenoisemanc.wixsite.com/mysite/post/a-plea-for-help-for-feminists-from-a-trans-widow

I personally would rather hear from XX women too.

However, we need to speak to the masses, so we need to adopt the best strategies for doing so.

Even if those strategies exclude some women from participating?

How does DH writing an article exclude natal women?

Honestly, I'm not really a fan of Debbie. I just think that their voice will, at this stage, attract many more readers. I don't agree with that, and I would rather this job went to a natal woman. However, I think we need to understand what the wider public (not just feminists) will listen to.

I think we absolutely do need to hear from trans people too. I would have preferred a transman wrote this type of article though

I see this as a drip drip drip campaign.

The aim in my view is to alert as many people as possible to what is happening (and what has already happened) and make a stand on behalf of women.

We need many voices speaking out to reach the widest possible audience.

I welcome Debbie's contribution.

I think we absolutely do need to hear from trans people too. I would have preferred a transman wrote this type of article though

On the specific issue of sport, transmen aren't at the moment impinging much on other people's rights, so I'm not sure they would carry much weight (tha and them being female...). If they're not on T then afaik there's no reason they can't compete as women; if they are on T then they're excluding themselves as they'd be treated like any other woman doper. Just a few are making it in male competitions - which does give some hope for the idea of men's sports becoming 'open' and inclusive of everyone who has benefitted from testosterone either currently or during development.
The exception is a few 'transboys' on T in some US states which enforce same sex junior competitions but allow 'medical treatment' not to be counted as doping.

Like it or not the trans allies are part of the problem

This times 50million.

In this battle of woke ideology v biological reality we do have to imagine how words sound to the completely naive, ignorant or mild sheep like types or those fully signed up to the batshit crazy wokeness.

Words being written for the biological reality side by transgender people are really important in these situations.

I felt more confident in being able to assert certain statements to others once I could quote the words of trans gender people. As others were trying to throw the views and "limited privilege/ oppressed minority groups" arguments back at me.

I keep a lot of personal opinions out of debates. Partly as they're personal, partly as I'm still working on them and partly as I don't thing they're helpful.

fully aware I can also spout a pile of random shit, apologies in advance and retrospectively

Trans allies - the ones who write sense, the ones who listen to women and will change their behaviours if they find they've been unacceptable in the past, can be part (though just a part) of the solution.

Ditto Male allies.

But nothing new has been said. Not sure I get the hype about what has been written, is there more to it?

It's what many female athletes have put their arses on the line for. DH isn't an athlete or involved in sports, seems a bizzare bone to be thankful for

No, it's not new. It's just a competent opinion column in a national paper.

It's a point that needs to be reiterated as often as needbe, by as many voices as possible, until all the sporting bodies get the message that their current policies harm women's sports and adopt a sensible solution - one option being what DH spells out.

I'd be pleased by this sort of column whoever had written it.

How does DH writing an article exclude natal women?

Debbie is entitled to Debbie's opinion. It's Debbie being feted as a feminist ally and welcomed into women's spaces that I object to. And Debbie's opinion being given more weight than women's opinions.

But Hayton has no desire to compete in sports, therefore is happy to allow women women only spaces here.

Debbie is a self identified transwoman who saw no issue using women's spaces when it suits them. It's beyond me why so many feminists give Debbie a platform.

Debbie is using Magdalen Berns' photo as a Twitter profile pic this week, it galls me.

Debbi H's radio and tv appearances (the one's I have seen and heard) on this issue have done the GC cause no favours. They are extremely oblique when answering questions about the essential clash of interests between natal females and TW sharing the same spaces. I've always been left with the feeling that they are fence sitting at best, at worst, advocating for TW like themselves to be accepted because they are nice and none threatening. They are much more robustly GC in their written pieces, but these do not have the same exposure or reach.

We need trans allies to speak up. It’s very powerful to hear trans people speak up on this because it’s an unexpected opinion. We won’t get anywhere without being a broad church. At present it’s very easy for woke wankers and people who don’t think about this stuff much, to say or be told that Terfy feminists = ‘anti trans’ and just shut their ears from that point to what women have to say. Much harder to ignore someone like Debbie Hayton.

Being an ally to women begins at home.

DH is quite happy using women's bathrooms

I’m pleased I didn’t reply with “Why does your husband’s behaviour matter?”

Debbi H's radio and tv appearances (the one's I have seen and heard) on this issue have done the GC cause no favours (...) They are much more robustly GC in their written pieces, but these do not have the same exposure or reach.

Additionally, it’s far easier to be robust when not being led, challenged, or visually edited by a radio/television interviewer, particularly with the associated time constraints.

A Times article entitled ‘We trans women should compete only against men’ is a really powerful statement.

I think from a lot of posts on here that many of us would want ultimately to get to new, proper legal protections for women and children around these issues. In order to get those, obviously campaigning of different kinds will be needed. I don’t expect to personally agree with a lot of the other people who will be campaigning on this, or to have much in common with them apart from on a defined set of issues around the need for new, proper legal protections for women and children.

So I am happy that a transwoman has a article in a national paper making points that articulate key gender-critical issues around sport. That perspective will really resonate with some readers.

We’ve all still got a very long way to go on this and a vast number of people don’t yet know about these issues, don’t care, or wouldn’t take the very same arguments if they were voiced from a ‘T*RF’.

So it’s great that Debbie gets to publish an article about it. Having an article in the Times is an achievement to be celebrated. We can disagree with Debbie or each other on some of this but that’s fine. It’s still heading in the right direction.

I liked Debbie's article in the TES and this is just as good.

The promotion of DH as someone to speak on this subject means they are getting to speak when it should be women's voices. Anyone saying we need allies as they are listened to more is indirectly saying their voices are more important than women's voices.
We should be clearly and loudly asking every news outlet that gives DH a say when they are going to listen to women and that whilst DH views may overlap they do no to speak for us.