Athletics: China field a women’s relay team featuring two men

[Haworthia]

This was as predictable as the day is long. China are well known for their, er, intense pursuit of national success at the Olympics. What better way than to field two blokes but insist they’re women!

I mean, look at them.

On Twitter there were numerous people suggesting that they were possibly women who have taken massive doses of testosterone. Personally, I don’t think testosterone could ever give a natal woman such masculine faces.

They’re men.

twitter.com/savewomenssport/status/1167544600002748417?s=21

I thought it was just an ugly woman.

That's just so revealing. A certain type of men (sorry if your friend turns out to be in this category) mentally divides women into "fuckable" and "not fuckable". He's only interested in the first class. So if a few more people, of either sex, get lobbed into class 2, he's not bothered. In fact he doesn't even notice.

And who is laughing at us on Twitter.

The lack of self-awareness is astounding. A person who claims to work with young people laughing at girls and young women losing out in sports? Just a tad inappropriate.

This is gaslighting on an international scale - two of those athletes are men - they look male and they sound male. Who could deny it?

But all the IOC require is that a man declares that he has a 'female gender identity' and keeps his testosterone levels near the lower end of the normal male range. The IOC even say that people should have 'autonomy' over their gender identity, which presumably means that anyone can choose to have whatever gender identity they please. There is absolutely no requirement to present in a stereotypical female or feminine way, because that would mean that women also had to do this, and I think most people here would agree that forcing women to do that is unacceptable.

Oldcrone - So we'll just have males, presenting as male, dominating women's sports. Sounds fun.

no I am laughing at the people who with no evidence have decided that a woman is a man when the athletic organisation of that country as said they are not. its not cool to single posters out like that. but hay you do you.

Come off it bespin.

Women's sport, women's rights, women's issues - all one big laugh to you, as you post on here and then run back to twitter to laugh with Joss Prior.

As I have already told you and asked you about - calling someone a woman in the eyes of the IOC means nothing anymore. But I guess you don't actually want to really engage. It is quite obvious.

Next up, no need to identify as a woman or to lower your testosterone a bit.

Because you'll be able to claim to be non-binary and not have to lower your testosterone at all.

Because if sports are segregated by gender identity and not sex, then why is one gender identity valid but another is not?

If woman as a feeling gets you into women's sports, then how come non-binary as a feeling doesn't get you into women's sports? Discrimination surely?

You'll just have to say that you "feel like a woman" some of the time. On race days for example, but you feel like a man the rest of the time.

Bit like Pips Bunce who feels like a woman when he accepts women's awards but feels like a man at other times.

zebrasdontwearbras

no I take woman's issues seriously, I don't take people posting on a forum about possible made up issues they have no proof of less seriously.

what are we talking about that isn't we looked at some woman they look like men so we will call them that. Even if the team says there woman we will not beleive them because again with no evidence we know we are right.

no proof

Well, I mean, except for the picture...

Bespin see MrGHardys post. Because you say Even if the team says there woman

Define woman? Because the word no longer means anything.

A man says I’m a woman. The IOC agrees. You agree. This thread is born because we have eyes and don’t agree.

And girls and women (actual XX kind) lose. And for you it’s all word games and one upmanship. That’s not cool.

It's Shania Twainism

Man: "I feel like a woman."

Saying something does not make it reality.

Transwomen are not women.

These two men are not women.

Even if they got facial surgery, inverted their penises and looked hot, they are not women. If they lower their testosterone, they are not women.

The Chinese team is not even mostly female.

The IOC accept gender identity, feelings as being enough to call these dudes women. They are part of the problem.

But you guys can never ever make me and my sisters call a man a woman.

C'est ne pas un penis. Yes, it damn well is! The trechery of language, of accepted meanings. Damn postmodernism.

Time and time again the people that says they are a woman because of an inner feeling and not biology are laughing at women rather than acting like part of the sisterhood.
That’s why I’ve never believed TWAW, because they never, ever behave like women.

THis does show the harm that has been done. People trusting one another less because a group of people , mostly male,has decided that gender is more important than sex which other people, mostly women ,see as discrimination.

Women who you would never think twice about are now double checked. Are they who they say, or are they men hoping to pass as a women for whatever reason.

Women who you would never think twice about are now double checked. Are they who they say, or are they men hoping to pass as a women for whatever reason.

I guess being permanently lied to leads to a siege mentality.

The thing is it doesn't need to be a problem being "double checked". A clear rule to say "no Y chromosomes in order to take part in women's sport", a cheek swab and it's done. Actually less invasive than the urine testing which all elite athletes are subjected to. (And urine tests are embarrassing - I believe you have to pee in front of the person administering the test so they can be sure that it really is your pee going into the bottle, not some random sample you're using to try to game the system).

Perhaps it is terrible and mean of us to name these two as men without proof.

In the interests of not getting derailed, I therefore propose we set the notion of "proof" to one side temporarily, and instead consider "evidence."

We have audio and visual evidence suggesting male. General consensus agrees with this interpretation of the sense data available to us (my six year old pulled a face when I asked "is this the women's team or the men's team?" as it is clearly a mixed team).

We have a statement from China suggesting female, that cannot be used as evidence due to its language being undefined and purposefully obfuscatory.

The available evidence suggests these athletes are male. It is up to those who believe otherwise to present evidence in favour of that position.

Cheek swab should do it. Until then, why would any rational person assume they are female?

And urine tests are embarrassing - I believe you have to pee in front of the person administering the test so they can be sure that it really is your pee

Correct, they actually need to clearly see the urine coming out of you, so athletes are very very used to invasive testing. It’s part of sport.

We have a statement from China suggesting female

The chinese statement says they are 'women'. We don't know what definition of 'women' they are using (plus the obvious issues around translation from chinese).

The IOC and other sporting bodies don't say that people have to be 'female' or 'women' to take part in women's events. They say they have to either be women or men who declare that they have a 'female gender identity' and testosterone at the lower end of the normal male range.

Instead of declaring that these people are women, the chinese authorities could have just said that they are men with a 'female gender identity' who have testosterone below the required limit. This would make them eligible to compete in women's events.

Exactly, OldCrone - hence the statement from China is inadmissible as evidence when sexing these athletes.

The rules themselves are batshit and discriminatory, there's no disputing that. I'd also list them as further evidence to add to the "I reckon these are men" pile, for reasons others have detailed.

It's just quite easy for those who haven't dived headfirst into this issue and researched it thoroughly, to feel vaguely guilty about assuming purported women are actually men based merely on their appearance. If we take the line of 'assessing evidence' we sidestep the major pitfall of talking about 'proof' (because people can argue about what constitutes proof until the cows come home and it risks derailing us while leaving plenty of space for our female socialisation to be nice to kick in).

Cheek swab should do it. Until then, why would any rational person assume they are female?

Quite. Even without the batshit transgender rules, anyone who knows anything about the history of doping in sports and what stuff like anabolic steroids did to athletes will look at those Chinese athletes and go hang on a fucking minute. If it looks like a man, walks like a man and sounds like a man, questions have to be asked.

Ten years ago questions were being asked about Caster Semenya’s male appearance without embarrassment/fear. Why are we not allowed to asked the same questions of these athletes? And why isn’t this making the news the way Caster Semenya has?

Of course, once cheek swabs have been done, these athletes being male will not disqualify them because the rules are batshit.

But this whole incident will be added to the pile of evidence against the assertion that "No nefarious individual or unscrupulous nation would ever exploit trans-inclusive rules and regulations for their own benefit."

And the size of that evidence pile is admissible evidence when assessing whether the push for trans-inclusion has serious negative unintended consequences across society in general and for females in particular.

And why isn’t this making the news the way Caster Semenya has?

Because it isn't on a world stage. Yet.