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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Athletics: China field a women’s relay team featuring two men

314 replies

Haworthia · 31/08/2019 14:28

This was as predictable as the day is long. China are well known for their, er, intense pursuit of national success at the Olympics. What better way than to field two blokes but insist they’re women!

I mean, look at them.

On Twitter there were numerous people suggesting that they were possibly women who have taken massive doses of testosterone. Personally, I don’t think testosterone could ever give a natal woman such masculine faces.

They’re men.

twitter.com/savewomenssport/status/1167544600002748417?s=21

Athletics: China field a women’s relay team featuring two men
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zebrasdontwearbras · 02/09/2019 18:20

Let's face it - this is the future of Olympic teams. This is just the beginning.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 02/09/2019 18:25

I disgaree, zebras, either the public outrage will cause a backlash and return to strictly Y chromosome free women's sport, or it will be the end of women's sport altogether as no one want to watch tenth rate men.

XY trans individuals will end up disappointed either way.

OldCrone · 02/09/2019 18:27

The rules themselves are batshit and discriminatory, there's no disputing that.

I still don't understand why they set the testosterone level for men competing in the women's category at 10 nmol/L, which is a normal level for men, but more than 4 times the upper end of the normal level for women.

Presumably if a woman was tested and found to have a testosterone level of 9.9 nmol/L she would be banned from competing, since it would be assumed that she was doping, but a man with the same level would be OK. So the chromosome test needs to be carried out as well, so that they know whether this level of testosterone is allowable or not.

Or is it now acceptable for female athletes to have male testosterone levels of up to 10 nmol/L? Are they going to be allowed to use steroids to acheive that?

zebrasdontwearbras · 02/09/2019 18:30

Arnold, honestly, I sincerely hope you're right, and I'm wrong.

I think it may have to get v bad, or rather v much worse, before it gets better though. Because there seems to be an awful lot of support that these Chinese vey male males are, in fact, women - and I don't see the IOC rushing to change the rules on "gender identity."

jellyfrizz · 02/09/2019 18:35

Interesting timing of transition for this young athlete:

www.runnersworld.com/runners-stories/a28875180/june-eastwood-first-transgender-runner-di-cross-country/?source=nl&utm_source=nl_rnw&utm_medium=email&date=090219&utm_campaign=nl17913529&src=nl

Then, an injury during her sophomore year ultimately became the turning point that helped her realize she needed to address her identity.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 02/09/2019 18:37

I'm not exactly hoping I'm right, zebras, as I can see it ending in, 'well we'll just have sport' which is no better for women. The public really, really aren't on board with XY trans people in women's sport though. They won't pay to watch it.

The most infuriating thing about trans privilege activists is that they'd sooner everyone lose out than allow women anything to ourselves. They'd close all the public toilets, all the homeless shelters, destroy all women's sports rather than accept 'no'.

Tyrotoxicity · 02/09/2019 18:41

If males in the female category are allowed to take drugs to adjust their hormone levels, then it would be sexist discrimination not to allow females in the female category to also adjust their hormone levels with drugs.

Next stop on the Implications Logic Train: Not Allowing Doping is Transphobic.

ThePurported · 02/09/2019 18:47

I still don't understand why they set the testosterone level for men competing in the women's category at 10 nmol/L, which is a normal level for men, but more than 4 times the upper end of the normal level for women.

I would guess it's because 10 is the low end of normal testosterone level for men. It's not that testosterone below 10 nmol/L makes them women, it just makes them 'non-men' in the eyes of sports governance bodies.

zebrasdontwearbras · 02/09/2019 18:50

The most infuriating thing about trans privilege activists is that they'd sooner everyone lose out than allow women anything to ourselves. They'd close all the public toilets, all the homeless shelters, destroy all women's sports rather than accept 'no'.

That is just so true isn't it? It absolutely is a war on women - and they're laughing about it on twitter. Because it is about getting one over on women who say 'no' to them. No - you're not women. No - we won't allow you in our single sex spaces, sports etc - so they'll burn the lot down.

zebrasdontwearbras · 02/09/2019 18:52

And mimmymum, and women like you, who are complicit in this wholesale destruction of women's rights and sports and spaces - you suck. That is all.

MrGHardy · 02/09/2019 21:09

jelly

From the article you linked:

"“Research suggests that androgen deprivation and cross sex hormone treatment in male-to-female transsexuals reduces muscle mass; accordingly, one year of hormone therapy is an appropriate transitional time before a male-to-female student-athlete competes on a women’s team,” Eric Vilain, M.D., Ph.D., currently the chair of the department of genomics and precision medicine at George Washington University, expressed in the policy guidelines."

I would love to see what "evidence" this was based on and what this individual is saying after the Karolinska Institute article came out.

Birdsfoottrefoil · 02/09/2019 21:16

MrGHardy didn’t Karolinska research also find a reduction in muscle mass? BUT critically they found no difference in strength. Nor was there the suggestion that muscle mass reduction made it equal to female muscle mass.

ThePurported · 02/09/2019 22:07

I would love to see what "evidence" this was based on and what this individual is saying after the Karolinska Institute article came out.

Joanna Harper's study, presumably.
Here's the same Eric Vilain talking about NCAA rules, at least he's honest:

www.velonews.com/2018/10/news/commentary-the-complicated-case-of-transgender-cyclist-dr-rachel-mckinnon_480285

How do the governing bodies handle this conundrum? In 2015 I interviewed Dr. Eric Vilain, a professor of human genetics at UCLA. Vilain helped write the NCAA’s rule for transgender participation. Under those rules, transgender women must undergo one year of testosterone suppression therapy before being allowed to compete. Vilain referenced studies that showed that a year of testosterone suppression significantly dropped the muscle mass in adult males.

Vilain told me that the NCAA’s rules were also aimed at inclusivity and that the governing body aims to give everyone the chance to compete. Creating rules around transgender participation, he admitted, was extremely challenging. He said that the entire concept of anatomical equality for transgender athletes was simply not feasible, and thus, it was not a stated goal of the NCAA’s rules.

“It is not about making everybody biologically equal, and I think that is a common misconception when we start talking about transgender athletes,” he said. “People want transgender [females] to be physiologically identical to [born] females, and if they’re not, it’s unfair. That is not possible.”

Dr. Vilain referenced the structure of the pelvis and the mass of certain muscle groups as anatomical differences between the male and female body that will always be somewhat different. But achieving total equality is not the point, Dr. Vilain said. The purpose of the NCAA’s rules is to, in a sense, shift the transgender female athlete’s muscle mass and physiology away from that of the average male. The goal is to create a pathway to include the transgender athlete, not create total equality.

“Can you turn a man’s body into a woman’s body? The short answer is ‘no,” Vilain said. “I think we need to move past that idea completely.”

He talks about "shifting the transgender female athlete’s muscle mass and physiology away from that of the average male". Like I said, the idea is to create 'non-men' who can be lumped in with women.

OldCrone · 03/09/2019 00:29

He talks about "shifting the transgender female athlete’s muscle mass and physiology away from that of the average male". Like I said, the idea is to create 'non-men' who can be lumped in with women.

Eric Vilain is a believer in 'gender identity'. People who believe in this concept appear to think that if a man has a 'female gender identity', he is fundamentally different from other men. Because of this feeling that such a man has, they think that he shouldn't compete against other men because his feeling makes him a 'non man'. Women are also simply 'non men' according to the misogynists who are in charge of the sporting regulations, so it makes perfect sense to them to try to alter these male 'non men' so that they can compete with the other 'non men' also known as women.

There is absolutely no real reason why a man with a 'female gender identity' shouldn't compete against other men. If he chooses to enhance his 'female gender identity' by using hormone treatments, and this adversely affects his performance in his chosen sport, then he should just accept that this is a choice he has made.

Bespin · 03/09/2019 04:41

Interesting timing of transition for this young athlete:

yep she finished 7th totally dominating woman's sport again.

testing987654321 · 03/09/2019 06:16

And pushed all the women from 7th place onwards down one place. And if there were a fixed number of places they excluded a woman athlete from the team.

So yes, pushed women out of their sport.

HandsOffMyRights · 03/09/2019 06:28

Bespin 'Eastwood’s last race was 15 months ago when she placed seventh in the men’s 1500-meter final at the 2018 Big Sky Conference Championships. While Saturday’s competition'

The runner was 15th in the men's race.

This runner has an opportunity now to improve on that by competing in the women's race.

Great timing indeed.

testing987654321 · 03/09/2019 06:29

yep she finished 7th totally dominating woman's sport again

Actually this is a really interesting comment, because implicit is the agreement that it would obviously be unfair if JE had come first.

So you think it's okay men taking women's places provided they struggle to win.

Surely we should be equally happy with any competitor winning.

But you know the race isn't fair with JE included so you are pleased when they don't win.

This should have been a women's race, just for women.

HandsOffMyRights · 03/09/2019 06:35

I agree testing. 1st or 7th, the fact that women's races are no longer female only is the issue.

NotBadConsidering · 03/09/2019 06:35

The amount of gaslighting going on with this just blows my mind. “Four cis women”. I mean, WTF?

I have shown more than 20 people at work the non-captioned photo and asked them to give me there immediate impression with no background and the answer is either:

“Two men, two women....no wait, three men and one woman” or

“Three men and a woman”

followed by WTF? when I tell them they are all supposed to be women. No one, not a single person, has looked and said “four women”.

A few years ago there was a brilliant segment on The Daily Show where they argued whether Fox News were evil or stupid and there was Team Evil and Team Stupid arguing the case for both. I think it could be applied here.

Oblomov19 · 03/09/2019 06:59

I don't even know why I'm surprised. At first I thought 2 men, 2 women. Then I thought 3 men. What a joke. How sad! Sad

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 03/09/2019 07:32

The chinese statement says they are 'women'.

I am minded of one of those word pun things, like "buffalo buffalo..."
Except this one is more like "they are not not non-non-non women"

GirlDownUnder · 03/09/2019 07:57

Except this one is more like "they are not not non-non-non women

Nah Buzz it’s even easier, they are non men like the rest of us.
(except maybe you cos you have a Schrödinger's prostate).

NotBadConsidering · 03/09/2019 08:28

It doesn’t matter where they came. Not even the Chinese are blatant enough to drop this team with men in and have them win straight away. What will happen is they will run increasingly respectable times over the next 12 months. They might do well at the Doha world championships coming up soon but maybe not beat everyone. They will do well enough to qualify for the Olympic final then they’ll run their best.

2BthatUnnoticed · 03/09/2019 08:44

Some of the Twitter reaction (“omg they are CS women you T*Fs!”) is ridiculous.

This only made the news because Chinese social media (weibo) had a “WTF!” moment about these runners back in July or so and again now.

The questioning and scepticism has mostly been by Chinese people, nothing to do with MERFs.