Rich men / beautiful women

[Tararhu2]

Probably feminism 101 ... I’m trying talk to my daughter about feminism. She’s 17 and thinks she’s 27. Won’t listen to me. So We’ve been talking about Harvey Weinstein....I think her views are a bit misogynist. She says something like:

‘for every woman he abused there must have been at least one other one who slept with him willingly to get ahead.’

She then said ‘until very women stop using their beauty to get ahead they will always be objectified and creeps like Harvey will have the chance to thrive. Rape os never ok and never justifiable. However, the sense of entitlement rich men have over beautiful women and subsequent opportunities for abuse are in part caused by women. Until women stop objectifying themselves we cannot expect equality. Women who marry far less attractive, older richer men for money are traitors to us all. They perpetuate the Beauty/power exchange and let us all down.’

Isn’t this victim blaming at its best? Or am I just old fashioned to think that wearing a short skirt doesn’t mean your asking for it. How do I explain it to her?

You know men help each other out all the time - but they ask for nothing in return apart from a similar favour if the situation arises.

Really?

That's not my experience overall. Men are expected to 'man up' and deal with their own problems and taught that 'boys don't cry' etc - all the toxic masculinity stuff.

This is likely why so many men commit suicide, many upon reaching middle age (when they finally 'realise' they're a failure and it's too late to turn things around).

@ShortCircuit181

I was more referring to in business/the work place than emotional support.

One would assume a decent man wouldn't even sleep with willing women in the first place. Hence the argument "he thinks it is ok, because some women are willing to sleep with him to get ahead, is flawed.

I do appreciate that this is exactly the kind of logic incels and MRAs and all those angry little boys on the internet use, but again, I would say it is an outcome, not the cause.

@ sillage

What do you mean exactly?

Jesaminecollins, my question was how you decided it was 'you' who persuaded 'him' when you say you never asked for a reward for sex but 'sort of' used sex as an incentive.

Perhaps he was the one who sort of convinced an easily persuadable you.

Look at you directly blaming women for creating a "sexual blackmarket", directly blaming women for the abuses men commit against women, blaming competition between women for men-held resources in order to remove some percentage of blame from Harvey Weinstein.

I blame HW for things he did. I blame individuals, who are often women, for offering to trade sex for some perceived benefit, without caring about the effect on others. Anyone who offers to have sex for a role is potentially stealing the role from someone who was not willing to do the same thing, it's a kind of employment fraud.

Blame is not apportioned out by % where you give blame to one person and therefore take it from another. Everyone is 100% to blame for the things they really are to blame for. Everyone will have, some or much of the time, mitigating factors like socialisation or expectations or being poorly brought up or being poor, whatever.

I don't know how anyone who knows any number of women, or for that matter has any insight into their own mind, believes that women never have culpability for their own actions and choices.

Do you really believe that some women are not happy to exploit other women? Some people are exploiters.

But shouldn't those with power give help to those without -without asking for sex in return.You know men help each other out all the time - but they ask for nothing in return apart from a similar favour if the situation arises. They definitely don't ask for sexual gratification in return (obviously sex abuse of men does go on but I'm speaking of hetro men)

I think this is a difficult question to answer. I think everyone should try and help others, but sometimes we do have to make a decision. If I am picking someone for a role that could make a career, I am not picking some other person, right?

But as far as should they not ask for sex, yes, I think so, for a direct exchange. (I do think marriage is a more complicated scenario.) But the corollary of that is that it is also wrong to offer sex to get something you want.

It is the case generally that people ask for the find of favour that the other person is capable of providing. Since most people are heterosexual it does limit who they will be interested in sexual favours from. I'm not sure that fact is in itself sexism though.

@sillage

It is so long ago now I can't remember and dare I say that things were different in the late 80's early 90's

Anyway there will always be younger pretty women who sleep with older richer men for money. I follow Duncan Bannatyne on twitter and I have to laugh at his lovey dovey comment about his woman because he can't see what everyone else can see which is she is with him for his money. I am nearer his age and would sleep with him because I don't fancy him infact I don't fancy many men my age or older. I told him indoors I could definitely go for someone younger - perhaps a Richard Madden lookalike

would not sleep with I have just got myself a new wireless keyboard and mouse and I am finding it hard to get used to!

Nobody is arguing that joy.

What about when the actress offers it?

If it's made clear that the role is up for grabs to the woman who is having sex with the casting director not the most talented - then I can't really blame a young desperate actress for having sex with him.

As pointed out earlier, those with existing wealth and connections can easily say no. But if it's that or end up doing porn anyway, or go back to your parents trailor in the sticks - then it's not so easy to pass up your "big break".

Alot of failed actresses in Hollywood end up sex workers because they are so desperate, only have looks to trade, and are surrounded by vipers ready to coerce them into those roles.

Seduction is also big power. it can go both ways

Of course sex is currency. As long as it’s in demand it can’t not be. Some people will trade it for cash, some for security, and in some conditions it’s traded for the chance to live. In real life the reasons for having sex are usually multi faceted, complex and often a bit murky.

Trying to set rules for how, when and why it is acceptable for a woman to have sex is what the patriarchy has done for years. Shaming women who don’t want to have as much sex or want to have more sex than some approved standard has already been well covered by most of the major religions.

Feminism that isn’t centered in compassion for the lived experience of real women is pointless.

Hollywood (and other industries with big money and power) are messy places where talent and hard work alone is not enough. More important is who you're related to, what favours are you willing to return, and yes - who are you willing to sleep with.

If rich men didn't ask poor women for sex in return for career advancement then there wouldn't be financial pressure on some women to oblige. The power is with the rich men not the women who may well be making an economically logical decision (those that aren't being physically coerced of course). How many men are asked to sleep their way to the top in Hollywood, why are they not exploiting their bodies? Probably because fewer powerful men are demanding sex from poor men in return for role.

Women but have free choice.
If a woman dressed up and went out to catch a rich man to keep her, had children to make sure he had to pay up if the relationship ended, just who is using who?

Sounds familiar:
"If the slaves would all rise up, there would be no more slavery. They must prefer slavery and they hold responsibility for it continuing." Let's never mind the brutal put down of rebellions, which fail much more often than not.

Woman stands up, look around to find herself stood alone, career abruptly over, penniless.

The fault is with those who can choose to stop exploiting, not with those who are trying their best to prevail through the exploitation.

Echo everything @Goosefoot has said

Yes there are some women who are pressured and feel they have no other choices, but there are also some who DO have a choice

and it's not blame the women OR blame the men, supply and demand are not mutually exclusive things!

While there is demand there will be supply and while there is willing supply there will be demand.

Harvey Weinstein has ensured that the women who were/are successful in Hollywood are a self-selecting bunch. They had to be happy, or at least able to put on a performance of looking happy in public, about being sexually exploited by an ugly, powerful man.

There were many who weren't and are not successful Hollywood actresses. I remember when all the Weinstein stuff came out Jessica Hynes said she was put forward for a role in a Weinstein film, but it was on the proviso she did a private audition in a bikini for him which she refused. So no Hollywood career for her. Compare this to the Hollywood success of her creative partner at the time, Simon Pegg, and you start to see how the patriarchy works.

History has all but written her involvement out of the success of the sitcoms she wrote/starred in with him, where as he has roles in blockbusters and I bloody doubt he was ever asked to give a private audience in a bikini.

Jessica Hynes said she was put forward for a role in a Weinstein film, but it was on the proviso she did a private audition in a bikini for him which she refused.

I've not heard that before. How awful for her. She's a fantastic actress and the best thing in Spaced.