Rich men / beautiful women

[Tararhu2]

Probably feminism 101 ... I’m trying talk to my daughter about feminism. She’s 17 and thinks she’s 27. Won’t listen to me. So We’ve been talking about Harvey Weinstein....I think her views are a bit misogynist. She says something like:

‘for every woman he abused there must have been at least one other one who slept with him willingly to get ahead.’

She then said ‘until very women stop using their beauty to get ahead they will always be objectified and creeps like Harvey will have the chance to thrive. Rape os never ok and never justifiable. However, the sense of entitlement rich men have over beautiful women and subsequent opportunities for abuse are in part caused by women. Until women stop objectifying themselves we cannot expect equality. Women who marry far less attractive, older richer men for money are traitors to us all. They perpetuate the Beauty/power exchange and let us all down.’

Isn’t this victim blaming at its best? Or am I just old fashioned to think that wearing a short skirt doesn’t mean your asking for it. How do I explain it to her?

Sorry I did not know that, that's why I wanted you to elaborate.

I take your point and I apologise for insulting older men's bodies.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7404477/Damaged-life-Epsteins-British-sex-accuser.html

I read this (some terrible stuff in there) and kept thinking how much better off she would have been to study law at Oxford instead.

The whole modelling and acting world sounds incredibly seedy and exploitative for young women.

Given the power imbalance I am sure even if they go into deliberately they will often end up exploited and abused.

Know two women in this situation and they are very calculating and single-minded about being with the guys for money, it’s their priority, love is optional. I don’t relate to them at all, am polar opposite

Recently, on various programmes and films I have been watching I have noticed that the casting director is female.
Maybe times are changing, but a lot of women seem to be involved in casting.
That's got to be a good thing for women.

I thought you were being facicious Someone; you weren't sorry.

I do think Hollywood, and to an extension most glitzy industries are designated to keep predictors in power so they can keep praying on women, kids and men.

We're led to believe that if you're attractive enough you can go from rags to riches , you just need someone to give you your big break. Bit in reality the people who go from rags to riches is the minority. The people who really make it come from wealthy families or families already in the industry. Many of the few that do turn from everyday person to superstar seem to struggle with longevity and mental health and addiction problems - which makes you wonder what they had to do to get there.

The list of predators using stardom as a means of coercion is endless, there's rumours about Disney and Nicolodian, allegations that popstars and movie stars are being used as prostitutes when their carers wain. Michael Jackson, Jimmy Savel, R Kelly, Harvey Weinstein, Brian Singer, Bill Cosby. We're now hearing about YouTube stars abusing power for sexual gratification.

The sad truth of the world is that predictors will gain power so they can commit abuse. Can we really blame woman that fall for it, or that go along with it.

No I'm really sorry. It never even occurred to me to think of body shaming and men in the same sentence.

Good point about class penelopepitstop1234.

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit also interesting, the idea that those who willingly play the game can't really win either. All I can think of was how naive and vulnerable I was at 16/7 and how easy I would have been to exploit.

Some Women in the last decade seem to have decided they have a right to string free sex, which devalues women as a whole.

The what now?

Now you see girls out with almost no clothing, drinking and lying in the streets, their self respect in gutter. Who have slept with over 50 men, and seem proud of it. How can this be progress?

I think it is progress when females are free to explore their sexuality. Do I personally find it a good idea to go down that path? Nope. Neither for females nor males. But for some it is the right choice. For men it has been considered a 'normal' kind of behaviour forever. I think it is progress women have this freedom now, too.

I have a relative who was pretty wild in her 20's and more than 2 decades later she has no regrets. Good for her. Her self respect was never in the gutter. You seem to project your lack of respect for such behaviour into people who behave like that and call it 'lack of self respect' then.

Some Women in the last decade seem to have decided they have a right to string free sex, which devalues women as a whole.

Why? Because women derive their value from either virginity or financially beneficial sex? Women clearly have a right to string free sex, and as clearly they have no obligation to sex, string free or otherwise.

I missed the comma in on last sentence!
It should read

You weren't, sorry

That sorry was me saying sorry! Sorry!

Typing on phone.

I agree completely with your daughter. She is wise beyond her years.

Rich, successful men and beautiful young women have always formed mutually beneficial relationships from which both parties get what they want. For her : social status, resources, security, freedom from the need to work, a good life for her children. For him : good genes for his children, the staus of being with a woman who could have any man she wanted and the opportunity to have sex with her.

Classic example: Donald & Melania Trump.

If a man had 10 first dates in a year and 8 sleep with him that night, can you not see how he would think a first date should equal sex. Oh and he goes home when told no.

“The fact the system is set up in such a comprehensively male-dominated way as to mean only the privileged minority of women (those with access to money and good education) are able to pursue a successful career and life without on some level pandering to men, creates a hugely unlevel playing field.”

@joyfullittlehippo
But that’s not true. Normal women don’t need to pander to men to get on in life. Girls are outperforming boys in school nowadays and women are getting more degrees. Of course, we all need to rely on others to an extent to get on - that’s how society works, but that’s different to pandering and it’s not sex specific. The majority of women who end up with unfulfilling lives or never fulfill their dreams do so because of personal reasons/failings.

“Any time you apply for a job with a plumbing company, you are expected to suck your boss’s cock.”

So the young women I saw working in Tesco and Starbucks this morning were all asked to perform sexual favors to get that position? Never going there again. The teachers at school all had to perform sexual favours? I agree there is an unfair societal expectation/burden regarding women being expected to spend longer on their physical appearance, but increasingly many women are turning their noses up at this to a greater or lesser extent. However, I would suggest that it isn’t the business of feminism to ‘force’ women to stop doing something that genuinely makes some women happy (eg, clothes shopping, getting dressed up and putting on makeup as and when they feel like it). Your post is a little bit over the top!

siring1 😂

Half this thread is now just us apologising to each other!

@Jsmith99 exactly, but I’d say that’s an extreme example, and in today’s society, fewer men than before see Trump’s lifestyle as ideal. Most men I know would perhaps envy his material wealth, but also see a man with a very poor inner life and one who only loves things which can be bought. Not a person to aspire to.

@joyfullittlehippo
I’m not denying there are instances of bias against girls/women - such as those you mention, just that your previous post was full of massive exaggerations. But while on the subject of education, does the 87/13 primary teacher disparity not unfairly bias against boys? Or what about the fact that nowadays, or perhaps for more than a decade, girls are outperforming boys in school on nearly every metric.

@joyfullittlehippo

I 100% agree with you.

I think people find it hard to understand that for some girls/woman ,getting a degree and a good job feels so out of their reach they genuinely feel their only chance of success is through their sexuality.

Let's also not forget that not everyone is academic. For a man that means taking a trade which can still lead to success. How many nail technicians earn the same as electricians? Many many women are still very much bound by gender and it's limitations.

I’d have thought the fact that the Weinstein case was one of the biggest scandals of any nature over the last decade, consuming millions of column inches, would suggest that virtual nobody thinks it’s fine, rather than it being seen as perfectly acceptable (as you seem to be implying is the case)

@penelopepitstop1234
The lowest performing group in schools is white working class boys, not girls. Rather fall back on physical attractiveness to try to find a decent husband (who can earn) than have to fall back on drugs and crime (which is what increasingly many under educated white working class boys see as their only “get out”).