Rich men / beautiful women

[Tararhu2]

Probably feminism 101 ... I’m trying talk to my daughter about feminism. She’s 17 and thinks she’s 27. Won’t listen to me. So We’ve been talking about Harvey Weinstein....I think her views are a bit misogynist. She says something like:

‘for every woman he abused there must have been at least one other one who slept with him willingly to get ahead.’

She then said ‘until very women stop using their beauty to get ahead they will always be objectified and creeps like Harvey will have the chance to thrive. Rape os never ok and never justifiable. However, the sense of entitlement rich men have over beautiful women and subsequent opportunities for abuse are in part caused by women. Until women stop objectifying themselves we cannot expect equality. Women who marry far less attractive, older richer men for money are traitors to us all. They perpetuate the Beauty/power exchange and let us all down.’

Isn’t this victim blaming at its best? Or am I just old fashioned to think that wearing a short skirt doesn’t mean your asking for it. How do I explain it to her?

You don't have to turn to prostitution and claim it as empowering. But many do.

I agree. But we're not necessarily talking about prostitution, but advantageous relationships. Date a creep get a part in his movie. Marry someone who you don't find attractive because he's rich, flirt with the boss to get a promotion.

Also your daughter is lucky she was able to go to uni and has a mother that cares. Alot of women who are prostitutes come from abusive homes have little to no education and see sex work as their only way out. We can't judge everyone's life choices by our own personal experience.

I think she is victim blaming tbh.

We all have subconscious mysoginy conditioned into us from our society and it can take a while to realise things.
So I don't blame her for thinking that.

But yeah I think she is totally wrong.

Financial security is highly seductive to many people.

Societal pressures again - we (women) are told our whole lives not to accept men who aren't financially stable, can't provide for us, have good prospects, etc. Not necessarily rich, but at least solvent.
Men don't get those messages (they get different ones).
I'm not sure you hear of men rejecting partners because of their lack of finance.

This happens a lot. Women want security. Men want sex. There will always be women who are prepared to make strategic moves to get what they want, and if that involves sex, then so be it. Their choice.

As for the rich man issue, this is also true. A woman of my acquaintance (something of a minor celeb) is with the most disgusting fat pig of a man whom she pretends to love. Everybody can see that she's only there for the money and lifestyle. She spent most of last summer having her face "refreshed" and new teeth fitted. Frankly, I find the pair of them utterly vile. They are both vulgar grotesque liars.

Also, big thumbs up to your daughter for critical thinking! She is young, but she will learn...

I'm not sure you hear of men rejecting partners because of their lack of finance.

But you do hear of young, good looking, men latching on to older rich women, wrapping them around their little finger -- sometimes rich old white women who find a black man from Africa or the Caribbean, marry them, and have their accounts plundered.

A propos students/sex work: very often this is not for simple maintenance, but to lay off their student debt.

lay off = pay off

If women didn’t behave this way then these kinds of men wouldn’t be able to get away with it plebeian g reasonable belief in consent. But on the other hand your daughter should respect an individual’s right to capitalise ontheir good looks.

I am not sure about the op. The initial post sounded like it was written by a misogynist man. First time poster. Not come back.

Many women aren't doing this to chase security, some woman, especially those being discussed on this thread, are chasing fame and fortune; that's very different to security.

Your daughter is right.

She's not blaming the victims at all, the victims didn't "choose" to use their looks or sex to get ahead but other women did, which feeds the misogyny and re-inforces to men like Weinstein that's it's ok to objectify women. The victims effectively end up being the "collateral damage".

I've seen it first hand in the workplace - historically male dominated industry where the pretty long blond haired woman with fake boobs and false eyelashes that she liked to bat at anything with a penis (and married to a senior person in the business) got ahead despite being shit, yet the more average looking but perfect woman for the job was overlooked. Everyone knew why she got where she was and everyone agreed she was shit.

But this just feeds the misogyny and continues to send the message that this is what women need to do to "get ahead".

She considered herself a feminist and could regularly be heard bleating about how hard it was for women in the industry - no shit Sherlock when they behave like you!!

I have no issues with any woman marrying whoever she wants to make her life easier in a mans world. Not my cup of tea, but I would not slate her for it.

I have no issues with any woman marrying whoever she wants to make her life easier in a mans world. Not my cup of tea, but I would not slate her for it

I don't either. I'm not convinced the pure gold digger is hugely realistic scenario anyway. Men and women enter into relationships for complex reasons.

I'm far more troubled by the Miley Cyruses and the Madonnas who really have no excuse- beyond sex sells and having very limited actual talent doesn't.

I think there are also biological pressures going on under the surface too. Youth is a bigger factor in female fertility relative to men, and in some sense the reverse is also true. Given that men have historically been likely to die off young an older Male is often an indicator of good genes.

I wouldn’t really blame a woman for capitalising on using whatever she’s got to get ahead. However the message has got to be clear if you are using youth/beauty to get ahead there is potentially a very limited shelf life for that strategy to work. If she hasn’t gotten other strings to her bow then she’s going to run into problems sooner or later.

One of the things that struck me about the whole #metoo thing is as much as I feel for actresses who had to essentially trade sexual favours for opportunities I also feel sorry for the perhaps better quality actresses who never got a break. We often talk about female representation in cinema and television maybe if there were more actresses selected purely on their acting talent, more women writers, directors, producers etc we’d see a much better shift.

I’m a Star Wars fan and I’m constantly fighting a battle amongst fellow fans as the knives are out for Kathleen Kennedy who is producing the current crop of movies. I do think the fact she is a woman is factor in why she’s criticised. I think stuff like the casting couch are a direct result of the upper echelons of Hollywood leaning so heavily towards men.

I find it hard to view people like Anna Nicole Smith as victims, even if they faced hardship in their lives.

Marrying an 89 year old billionaire? She absolutely knew what she was doing.

I'm suspicious at how many of the posts here are following the same oddly specific formula.

1. Your daughter has a point about blaming pretty women for rich men offering them money for attention.

1. Slutty, well-off pretty women who totally have other options are choosey choicing to be sluts.

1. Example (sometimes multiples) of women personally known to me who are golddigging, talentless, hot witches.

1. Women are as terrible as men, except for when pretty women are worse than rapists like Harvey Wienstein cuz they betrayed the sisterhood.

This thread reads like an incel subreddit.

I don't either. I'm not convinced the pure gold digger is hugely realistic scenario anyway. Men and women enter into relationships for complex reasons

Agree

This thread reads like an incel subreddit

Also agree

Its almost like I’m chatting with my dad...

Had an awful argument with my dad, dh, ds1 and ds1 boyfriend a few weeks ago about exactly the same thing

Oh my god...

My dad and dh and ds1 and ds1 boyfriend are not incels

Did not mean to infer that in my post!

I find it quite sad that some women have to sell their bodies to rich ugly older men. I'd rather stay single myself - but then I am not that young or that pretty if I am being honest.

Many women here seem to be OK with pretty young women choosing to sleep with old rich men for financial gain. Therefore you are OK the with old men sleeping with young women if they spend their money on them.

This thread reads like an incel subreddit

Yup.

Clearly what we need is more female film directors and an equal distribution of wealth.

siring1, clearly you haven't read either the contents of this thread or the contents of the Feminism forum if that's the conclusion you've drawn.

this thread specifically= Men treat women like whores because women are whores, men can't stop sexism until women stop being whores.

Feminism forum generally= Men abusing the many benefits of male supremacy to economically coerce sex (coerced sex is rape) from women is a sexist abuse of power.

What a weird thread. How many of those 'willing gold diggers' are in fact willing and not economically vulnerable, you think?

I sure wonder why all those foot massaging 'harlots' servicing Epstein were white trash or from some dirt poor ex-Soviet Republic. Just like the fact that our continental brothels are full of women from Eastern Europe. Must be something in the water there. Can't have anything to do with poverty and an early socialization into a world where you are only valued for your sexual accessibility.

this thread specifically= Men treat women like whores because women are whores, men can't stop sexism until women stop being whores

Feminism forum generally= Men abusing the many benefits of male supremacy to economically coerce sex (coerced sex is rape) from women is a sexist abuse of power

I find both of those views too polarised. There are women who have a choice and who are complicit. I'm not prepared to let them off the hook. I'm named some of them and to add to that there are the Brooke Magnanti happy hooker brigade. The "sex work is real work" brigade should be blamed too.