Genuine question on patriarchy

[Bodd8]

So.... Ive been on MN for a while but named changed because quite frankly Im scared to ask. I feel that the longer I wait to ask the question more ignorant I am going to feel.

The reason Im asking:
I work in a highly professional environment, male and females are in roughly equal numbers, if not grouped in certain areas. There are several women that I work alongside and they are very good at their jobs and well respected. The pay for consultants and perm staff is set. It doesnt change, its the same for everyone. Its been the same wherever I work. There are also women working in quite higher positions than me. Honest to God, I've never heard anyone make sexist comments, it almost feels like a non entity. I've never personally witnessed any inappropriate behaviour [thats not to say it doesnt happen elsewhere]
You get where Im going with this?
Ive met couples on the school run and made friends, the men Ive made seem to make equal efforts with work, children and home keeping. Their wives seem in no way to be victimised and seem to have the majority of control over the daily activities of the family.

So, Im a divorced man, I was subject to all kinds of abuse from ex wife, including violence. When I finally left her she was very angry and tried to use our child against me. I had been providing the majority of care for our child as we both worked full time, however when it came time to file for joint custody I realised how tough it would be. When I attended court it was all female. All three judges, both solicitors and barristers, CAFCASS, even the justice clerk were all female. The pressure for me to give up and "let Mum do the raising and you can babysit to give Mum a break" was immense.
It has cost me £20k to finally secure joint lives with order, as a man I was not entitled to legal aid despite the domestic violence proof I had, and no one ever suggested that the ex should lose contact.
As man it feels I can only be a real parent if a woman or a judge has allowed it.
Anyway I could go on but I hope you'll understand my point.

The question:
I genuinely struggle to see a patriarchy people talk about, admittedly I live in a town of mostly families in the UK. What are the main points women feel are unfair, and in the genuinely nicest possible way how would I notice or do something differently in my daily life?
Im trying not to be bitter about how hard it is to raise my child in a world that sees me as a second class parent due to my gender. Whilst I understand this might not seem as important to some but Id die ten times over for my child. She is the only thing that matters to me. So Im trying to understand "the other side of things" as it were.
Any insight welcome please.

You could read some books about feminist or feminism, Invisible Women by Caroline Creido Perez is good as it specifically explains how the world is built for men. You could read about All Women Shortlists or look up the current pay gap. I recommend Everywoman by Jess Philips MP.

There are too many examples to list them, women here will all have different experiences of the patriarchy and we are all pretty busy, but reading books by women on the subject should help you.

You have female colleagues who you could ask too, or the women who are in the families you know, what their experiences were. They would probably be amazed that you asked (or cared) and could bring you up to speed pretty quickly. Failing that, if you want to learn anonymously, then read threads on this board and read some books. Your daughter will thank you for it.

How will you explain to your daughter that as a society we accept the rights of men to rape women, via prostitution?
Why is it ok for porn to be so easily accessible to even children, and its not just 2 adults having sex-its violence against women & men get off watching it.
If a woman reports a rape, even with overwhelming evidence, the man will more often than not, not be prosecuted.

You need to do some reading, and not expect the women on here to give you a crash course in feminism.

You could start with this. It's easy, has only just been published so is fairly topical.

www.amazon.co.uk/Invisible-Women-Exposing-World-Designed/dp/1784741728?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

OhHolyJesus

Same book recommendation

Also sorry for your experience OP, glad you fought for your daughter. I know at least 3 men who didn't bother.

The patriarchy is implicit in the circumstances outlined your post! You explained how you felt that women were expected to do the majority of the parenting. But do people value parenting? No, they don’t. Because traditionally women have done most of it. You’ve heard people look down on stay at home mothers? That’s why! What you men have traditionally done is go out and earn money while women stay at home, give up or damage their careers with childcare and are beholden to the breadwinner. See - patriarchy.

Also - you can bet ten pounds that anything a single dad does is seen as much more of an achievement that anything a single mum does. I know quite a few widows and widowers with school age children. The widowers are always talked about as being superheroes just for getting the kids dressed in the morning.

Ah sorry, Cross post Datun it's such a fab book it's worth recommending twice

OP, ask yourself whether or not you think we live in a chauvinistic society.

Read Caroline Perez's book, and then ask yourself that question again.

i Feel as if your OP demonstrates that patriarchy harms men too (PHMT).

Patriarchy, not feminism, is the reason family courts favor women as primary caregivers in separation arrangements. This puts undue burden into Women to be the caregiver, even when. An all-male panel of judges would do the same. Also, your case excepted, when men ASK for full custody they are granted it more often than women who do the same.

Does law in the UK really only allow women and NOT men to get free legal representation in custody disputes? If so that’s patriarchy yet again, and is yet another sexist law that should be changed.

There are some great groups out there for men suffering under patriarchy. Check out goodmenproject.com

The thing about privilege is that it's invisible to those who have it. Many of the men I've discussed patriarchy with take it personally rather than looking at the bigger picture.

You've given an example of your own experience of the family courts and I sympathise with your experience, you really don't need to tell women about feeling disadvantaged. Try doing some research into the number of men who contribute little financially or practically to the upbringing of their children after a relationship breakdown. I've yet to meet a man who didn't feel resentful about maintenance and imply that they felt they were funding their ex partners handbag habit. Longer term the research indicates that women remain financially disadvantaged after divorce but men more often recover their financial situation.

As PP have mentioned some men seem to think they deserve a medal for doing any parenting, I've witnessed a man in a work situation talk about how he made packed lunches and dropped his kids off at the child minders in front of a dozen women who did that everyday but didn't feel the need to mention it, he was so obviously looking to be congratulated it was embarrassing.

Also pop over to the relationships board and see how many women have truly terrible partners who think that if they earn the money then the woman should do everything else. Your experience maybe different and I'm sorry you experienced abuse in your relationship but on average the opposite is true.

Patriarchy is not about you personally. I am almost certainly privileged compared to some men but that doesn't mean power structures which favour men don't exist.

I guess we don’t often talk to men about our experience of sexual abuse/assault. I once mentioned in mixed company hat I had been assaulted the previous night (man barred my way going up some stairs, then let me past, following me and putting his hand between my legs and grabbing). The men were shocked and obviously saw it as a rare and noteworthy event. Whereas the women had all had similar experiences. (I also found out that my female colleague with red hair had had it much much worse than me, and I had never realised.)
It was unusual for me to mention such an experience with men around, can't remember why I did, but I guess men who don't do such things may not realise how common it is.
It has happened to me from age 9 - I am horrified now when I see how young that is.

OP I hope this is a question in good faith.

As a pp said, it is difficult when you are in a privileged position to see the systematic ways in which the patriarchy disadvantages women. Childcare burden is a massive one which in turns affects your career. Porn. Prostitution. There was a massive thread on here about how women's pain/illness was not taken as seriously as men's. Domestic violence is overwhelming committed by men, although it does happen the other way round and I am so sorry that happened to you.

I honestly think you should go and do more reading - even just lurking on some threads on here and not expect women to do the leg work for you.

Again, very sorry to hear about your abusive relationship and I'm so glad you fought for your daughter and that you are willing to learn about feminism for the sake of her.

Ok, theres a lot there thanks.
So yes there is some positive attention when with my daughter, right up until they find out Ive had to go to court. This is especially true at school [which by the way is entirely female faculty] it does seem that a widower is a superhero but a man that has had to bankrupt himself fighting for it is demonised.

I understand that [anecdotally] around 90% of court cases end with sole residency to the mother.

I understand in my youth it was traditionally father = earner and mother= raising kids. But I cant see that today, I honestly dont know any families where one parent doesnt at least work part time.

@happydappy2 no I will definitely not be saying any of that to my daughter.

When I first met my ex over a decade ago, Id come back from living abroad and earned minimum wage, Ive done ok for myself now but my ex would quite often boast that she was the bread winner because she earned £600 a year more than me. If a man said that Id think he was an arrogant prick so I see no difference. I cant stand the word breadwinner and its competitive connotation.

Just to clarify I have done some research, for example Im absolutely shocked about the abortion laws over in USA. Im struggling to equate it to real examples in my life. I cant see a wage gap, I never have, I always thought it was illegal to pay males and females differently for the same work. Maybe its my industry but a job is a job and it comes with a set salary regardless of who gets it.

When I attended court it was all female. All three judges, both solicitors and barristers, CAFCASS, even the justice clerk were all female. The pressure for me to give up and "let Mum do the raising and you can babysit to give Mum a break" was immense.
It has cost me £20k to finally secure joint lives with order, as a man I was not entitled to legal aid despite the domestic violence proof I had, and no one ever suggested that the ex should lose contact.
I've had friends and relatives with the exact opposite experience. Male judges and solicitors. Father receiving legal aid despite conviction for domestic violence. Legal aid is about income not sex.

@imnobody4
All legal aid for family court has been scrapped except for female victims of domestic abuse.

Again OP (name change fail I assume) you are looking at this from your own anecdotal perspective, thats not how systematic power structures work. Just because YOU havent seen any sexism doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I haven't witnessed a murder but I know they happen.

Oh and someone has just posted a thread about women being forced out of the housing market - take a look.

Can you give any examples of thing you do to keep yourself safe specifically from sexual assault, Bodd?

These can be things you do both inside and outside of the home?

Things that you are aware of constantly when you leave the house?

Some university students were asked this. The women's responses filled the sheet. The men? They wrote "nothing".

Sorry about your experience OP. Not sure how to answer your question but I understand where you are coming from

All legal aid for family court has been scrapped except for female victims of domestic abuse.

Why do you think this is?

It's because of the patriarchy.

The patriarchy tells us that only women are victims because men are too strong; too powerful and not 'wimps'. It doesn't recognise that men can be victims too because what woman would have that kind of strength and power over a man? What man would let a mere woman treat him like that?

That's the patriarchy.

It's also the patriarchy that tells us boys don't cry and that any 'soft' emotions in men are weak (because the patriarchy associates those qualities with women and whatever a man does want to be, he sure as hell doesn't want to be seen as a woman!) It's the patriarchy that means suicide is the biggest cause of death in men - because society shames men who are 'weak'. Because the patriarchy says that men are strong. It's women who are weak.

It's the patriarchy that means SAHD are a rarity and often mocked when they do. It's why men often feel unwelcome at 'mother and baby' groups (because they're not mothers) but it's mostly women who stay at home and take care of the children because that's "women's work" and beneath a man.

That's the patriarchy.

It's the patriarchy that means many female police officers go out without wearing stab vests - because stab vests are designed for a male torso, meaning they're often too long and don't accommodate breasts.

Many men make the mistake of thinking that feminism is the cause of men's troubles. It's not. It's the patriarchy and many men would actually benefit from feminism, if they would only support it.

Bodd I'm happy to explain what I think, because I felt the same way as you a few years ago. I thought the equality battle had been won. Turns out, I just wasn't looking in the right places- my privilege as an older white woman was blinding me to what was still going on elsewhere.

I left a part time job in a very small business when I was 20 because the boss kept trying it on. It still happens.

Sexual assault- is totally normal, and still is.

Austerity impacts women and children disproportionately.

The average woman of 40 has a far smaller pension pot, and wage than a man of 40.

Industries which are dominated by women have lower wages than those do instead by men- so the same work may well get the same wage, but men and women are not doing the same jobs. 'Women's work' like caring involves heavy lifting, exposure to abuse etc yet gets paid far less than men's work.

I could go on and on.

I didn't see any of this, until I started looking.

@HeyDuggeesCakeBadge
Yup name fail.

That was the general idea of the thread, if I cant see it, that doesnt mean its not happening so Im asking real people.
@stella47 this is exactly what I mean. In my clubbing days Ive witnessed guys make some women truly uncomfortable. I can understand that happens because I have seen it.

Legal aid is about income not sex.

Whilst I don't have personal experience, my understanding is that of the OP's, that Legal Aid is now only available to women who have a recorded history of DA regardless of income.

this is exactly what I mean. In my clubbing days Ive witnessed guys make some women truly uncomfortable. I can understand that happens because I have seen it.

The difficulty for women, Bodd, is that, even when men have seen it and are aware it happens, they a) have no idea what it feels like to have to be vigilant, constantly, because this is a constant risk/threat to women and b) very rarely challenge the men who do it so it is perceived by the men doing it, and the women on the receiving end of it, that it is condoned.

I understand that [anecdotally] around 90% of court cases end with sole residency to the mother

But have you asked yourself why that is?

It's not because the courts 'favour' women over men it's because nuturing/caring is seen as an innate quality of women. Ergo, women are best placed to care for the children. Men have More Important things to concern themselves with, like Business. And the courts assumed that no self respecting man would want to restrict/demean/disadvantage himself by being the primary carer.

This means that women continue to be disadvantaged because it is presumed they will be the primary carer - someone else has explained the financial implications of this; but men who want to be an equal part of their children's lives are disadvantaged because they have to fight so much harder.

This isn't the fault of women. Or feminism. It's the patriarchy.