Genuine question on patriarchy

[Bodd8]

So.... Ive been on MN for a while but named changed because quite frankly Im scared to ask. I feel that the longer I wait to ask the question more ignorant I am going to feel.

The reason Im asking:
I work in a highly professional environment, male and females are in roughly equal numbers, if not grouped in certain areas. There are several women that I work alongside and they are very good at their jobs and well respected. The pay for consultants and perm staff is set. It doesnt change, its the same for everyone. Its been the same wherever I work. There are also women working in quite higher positions than me. Honest to God, I've never heard anyone make sexist comments, it almost feels like a non entity. I've never personally witnessed any inappropriate behaviour [thats not to say it doesnt happen elsewhere]
You get where Im going with this?
Ive met couples on the school run and made friends, the men Ive made seem to make equal efforts with work, children and home keeping. Their wives seem in no way to be victimised and seem to have the majority of control over the daily activities of the family.

So, Im a divorced man, I was subject to all kinds of abuse from ex wife, including violence. When I finally left her she was very angry and tried to use our child against me. I had been providing the majority of care for our child as we both worked full time, however when it came time to file for joint custody I realised how tough it would be. When I attended court it was all female. All three judges, both solicitors and barristers, CAFCASS, even the justice clerk were all female. The pressure for me to give up and "let Mum do the raising and you can babysit to give Mum a break" was immense.
It has cost me £20k to finally secure joint lives with order, as a man I was not entitled to legal aid despite the domestic violence proof I had, and no one ever suggested that the ex should lose contact.
As man it feels I can only be a real parent if a woman or a judge has allowed it.
Anyway I could go on but I hope you'll understand my point.

The question:
I genuinely struggle to see a patriarchy people talk about, admittedly I live in a town of mostly families in the UK. What are the main points women feel are unfair, and in the genuinely nicest possible way how would I notice or do something differently in my daily life?
Im trying not to be bitter about how hard it is to raise my child in a world that sees me as a second class parent due to my gender. Whilst I understand this might not seem as important to some but Id die ten times over for my child. She is the only thing that matters to me. So Im trying to understand "the other side of things" as it were.
Any insight welcome please.

You appear to need education on capitalism and markets too. Pay is rarely about markets. Loads of people want to be doctors. Yes, you have to train but the pay is very good. There is a shortage of nurses, yet they still aren't offered better money.
Let's move back to choice. Men I know were advised not to go into primary teaching and certainly not to work with the little ones because of "well, men don't do that." Women aren't firefighters because they don't want to be a single female in a male environment. Many traditionally female jobs also have crappy hours - teachers work 60 hour weeks on average. Care workers have long shifts and night work. Expectation also has a massive effect on what you choose. I fight constantly to counteract the pretty princess tropes for my daughter. It's everywhere. Little girls coached into caring about being pretty and useless. If you can't see that as a father, you're deliberately looking away.

@CheckingOutTheQuantocks

Yes I do post in relationships and lone parents. But its you thats cherry picking now because I quite often make significant effort to help posters going through family court. I quite often try to console people in trouble.

Oh come on guys, please, its now 3 pages of posts, over night, Im trying to keep up

Depends on your settings. For me, there is less than one page.

How about dong your own research? Start with buying the book [yes written by a woman, you can give your money to women for their work] mentioned in the very first sentence of the very first response.

Go away, read it. Then come back.

Oh, and the number of male friends who have been refused part time work or had parental leave questioned because "isn't your wife part time?"

You say you haven't had time to read all the posts yet, but you've still had the time to make several posts yourself about how you're "cynical" about what we're saying and come up with what you seem to believe are counter-arguments about how women simply choose to have a crappy deal out of life. That's if you think our word counts for anything, which you apparently don't. Even if you did go away and read the book you've been recommended, would you give any consideration to what it says or would you just be cynical about that too because you don't want to give any credence to what women report as their own experiences?

You'll notice in the OP that I mentioned Im scared to ask. This is why.
In truth what Im actually going to do is leave well alone now.
Thank you to the original posters who took the time to share their experiences. Appreciated.

I wonder if you would so easily dismiss examples of how race or disability disadvantage people through discrimination as simply a consequence of personal choice? Ask yourself that question and if the answer is no then really think about why that is.

You mentioned the nursing profession of which I have some experience, despite being a predominantly female work force, men are over represented in senior positions, why do you think that is?

I don't believe you are posting in good faith either.

I flatly refuse to let my daughter suffer because of what other men or women do

Ok, clearly that wasn't my last post.

The point is that patriarchy isn't what anyone does specifically. And there are respects in which you will not be able to control it.

It's about structural, systemtic disadvantage. So much of which is just accepted as 'natural law' - eg your comment about CEOs not leaving work at 3.15pm; society's beliefs that men/women are more suited to certain careers due to their 'disposition' and that those careers do not have parity in terms of pay, conditions, progression - on the whole.

It tells men they are assertive whilst telling women they are bossy.
It means that men's voices are 'heard' over womens.
It means that women worry about making a complaint of sexual harrassment at work.
It means that sexual harrassment happens at work.
It also means that a man has no qualms about complaining about a woman who isn't 'nice' enough.

It's beliefs that are so deeply ingrained that people don't see them, don't question them, don't ever think about them.

It's why girls' T shirts have slogans like "little princess" on them and boys' t shirts have slogans like "little adventurer" on them.

It's why girls' school shoes are impractical for running/playing and flimsy/easily broken. Whilst boys' shoes are designed to withstand tough play.

It's why girls' are required to wear impractical skirts and then are also required to sit in particular positions so that they retain their dignity (although school/workplace uniforms have got better in this respect).

It's why boys' behaviour is excused as 'boisterous' or 'boys will be boys' yet girls are reprimanded for the same behaviour (often because their clothes are impractical and don't allow for it safely).

It's why male leads in films always date much younger women.

It's why there are more men in films than women.

It's why when films are made/remade with strong female leads men complain. Vociferously. All over the internet.

It's why many men won't read books by female authors.

It's why JK Rowling used her initials and not her name.

It'swhy men specify on dating sites "no women who drink beer - I want a lady"

It's why women are encouraged to be, and are reprimanded for not being, ladylike.

Shall I go on?

Data analysis and root cause is a big part of my job so go read some actual data? The books mentioned at the beginning of this thread would probably be a really good start.

You say that your sister has sacrificed her family for her career and that's just the way it is? Strange, because pretty much every senior man I've ever met has NOT had to sacrifice his family to have that career. So why is it only women who have to do this? Surely you can see that your experience of sacrificing your career to have a family is not the norm for men? That the vast bulk of senior men have not had to do this?

You say you see equal men and women on the school run? Is that really true? And even if it is, does the school run mean the men and women are doing equal work? eg, at our school, there are a fair number of men who are on the school run. But.... if child is sick, if childcare needs to be organised etc it is almost always the women who handle it. If a work thing comes up unexpectedly for the man, the woman steps in. And yet I don't see that so often with the men.

As for equal pay - you're being deliberately obtuse. The issue, as someone else explained very well upthread, is not that people are bad differently for the same job. It's that so often the better/ higher paying jobs are held by men. Why is that? The argument that men and women make different "choices" is often bandied around. But that's bollocks - women are assumed to be primary caregivers, directly impacting their ability to put in the hours and do the work and indirectly impacting the way they are perceived.

Another book recommended earlier is the Jess Phillips Everywoman book. Read the chapter on women-only shortlists. It is eye opening.

Yes, we’ve had two female prime ministers. And both took the job at a time when no males wanted the job. When David Cameron stepped down and the two final candidates were Andrea Leadsom and Theresa May, Leadsom made a remark about her being a mother, this led to widespread outcry as she was declaring she was a better candidate as a parent than May. How many male PMs or MPs have stood there and said they want to do the role because of their children? That they are a better candidate because they have children. Are they slated for it? It’s different because it was two women fighting for the top job, a position they were only in because no man was stupid enough to actually take the job on. Sure some men threw their name in the hat but they weren’t serious contenders and they withdrew their names pretty quickly when they realised that it was career suicide. People still talk about what Thatcher did (and they will do the same with May) but no other male PM is vilified as much as Thatcher. It was only a few years ago that female MPs who were given an office were commented on for their fashion sense. Note - that men weren’t subject to that.

Your comment about not getting communism until you live in a live communist country is right. You’re a man and there will be things you’re blind to but there are things you can notice of. You’ve already noticed that the marketing department is women. Now walk through the engineering department or the senior management team, how many are women vs men. Ask a woman in your office how many times she’s been scared on her walk home. Ask a woman in your office if she has ever considered taking self defence classes, not for fitness but for actual self defence. Ask a woman how many times her looks have been used a weapon against her, then ask a man. Getting your head around this is going to be crucial if you want to help your daughter navigate this. Surely you cannot want your daughter to have to call someone to meet her because a man can’t take no for an answer and she’s scared for her safety? Surely you want your daughter to progress in her career because she’s capable and brilliant, not turned down for jobs because she’s in a long term relationship and in her child bearing years?

One final point. I’m 29 and married, I have considered removing my engagement and wedding rings for a job interview because people assume I’ll have kids and leave. I decided I don’t want to work in a place that has that attitude (although I accidentally ended up there anyway and I’m really struggling to find a new job). My husband was up for a promotion and he was advised to put in that he’s married and bought a new house. Apparently for men that are married it makes them look more settled and more reliable, a safer bet to promote because they have a wife and kids to provide for. Women are a flight risk. I’m not the only woman who has considered removing her rings during an interview. When you were married, did it ever cross your mind to remove your wedding ring as it would hinder your chances for a job promotion? As for shared parental leave when we have kids, yes both our employers can do shared parental leave but why would we drop my husband’s much higher paying job for SMP when we have a new baby? My husband and I have talked about it, we would both love him to stay home for a few months but the amount of money we’d lose would just be too much. Shared parental leave works in the unlikely situation that both parents earn the same amount/the woman earns more or they have a very healthy savings account behind them.

Fewer than 100 posts and the OP bailed.

Not because women couldn't answer him but because we could. And we did.

And we weren't 'nice' about it.

Speaks. Fucking. Volumes.

Bodd I was one of the original posters but your arrogance and entitlement angered me. You are using your own experience as a gotcha but all of our experiences need empirical data and in depth analysis.

I don't know if you are posting in good faith or not, but I think you are posting out of a sense of grievance, which means that you are finding it difficult to move beyond your own personal sense of injustice.

I don't post here much, but why I keep returning to read is that so many of the women here - while sometimes referencing their own stories ,which, of course, very much have their own value - are so good at taking in the big picture - they pull out data, examine international issues, link to prominent writers/thinkers. And often write very entertainingly as well.

You have provided your side of your family situation where you are critical of women (your wife with whom you seem to have a toxic relationship and your sister who you consider 'ruthless.' Would you say that about a man who didn't have children and do you understand that men aren't asked to make the same choices?) You also offer a superficial picture of your colleagues/neighbours. But it's hard to know what really goes own in our acquaintances' lives. Data suggests that violence against people is largely committed by men, women are more likely to suffer from domestic violence, women earn less than men and that chores are not shared evenly between couples. Your experience may be different - but that doesn't alter the big picture.

If you want to explore outside your own circle and personal experience, you might look at the twitter timelines of prominent women. For example, all MPs get criticised online, but how many male MPs have people pondering whether or not they are worth raping or criticising them for being fat - when they are pregnant? Why do you think women are targeted? Are you happy for your daughter to grow up in a world like that? Increasingly evidence suggests that misogyny is the gateway drug to much of what is harmful in society. If you look at the giant toads of toxic masculinity who are currently crouching as the heads of state of the UK and the US you will see the ultimate representations of the privilege of patriarchy.

I think it might be more fruitful for you to think about how patriarchy is damaging to men as well as women. Males suffer too - from boys who don't conform to playground gender roles to men who feel emasculated and lost when they don't succeed professionally.

But right now - I'm not sure you're in the right space to hear that.

In truth what Im actually going to do is leave well alone now.

It must really hurt you the thought of giving a woman money to read her words that might educate you. Lol.

You'd like specific experiences ok....
When I got pregnant with my first child my boss was not happy and asked if that was what I really wanted. He doesn't like pregnant women or mothers in the work place but only employs us because apparently we're 'reliable and work hard'!
The highest female in the company had 2 children who were in full time childcare from a very young age. No home support from her DH who was never going to sacrifice his career. She spent years running around trying to do everything. Even when she reached associate director level she was the lowest paid. She had to fight to get an equivalent pay. The reason was because 'she only does smaller project's but she was only given smaller projects.
Part time does not exist in my old form. The minimum is 4 days a week and if you do that you basically halt your career progession. Only woman do this.

Everytime I get a taxi home I call my DH in front of the driver to say I'll be back soon.
Keys in fingers when walking home.
Self defence classes.
Spending my teens and twenties being treated like I wasn't very clever and a bit silly as I was very attractive.
Navigating situations with men when younger so as to not get into trouble..

Examples of the Patriarchy from my life and the life of friends:
Surprise because my title is Dr
Friend had a child and was very heavily pushed towards doing part time hours by female colleagues - who didn't get that she couldn't afford to (surely the Father earns more). Then punished by constantly being given assignments involving travel, doing far more travel than before children.
Sexual abuse/assault/cat calling - you will be horrified how soon this starts for your DD and her friends, even in regulation school uniform.
Nevermind groping in school corridors.
Surprise over which subjects I was good at at school - and just look at the percentage of Engineering graduates who are female, then compare to India!
In a meeting really concentrate on who interrupts who, who speaks over who, amount of time people are listened to. I once had a group interview (2 women 1 man) and by the end we women were just having to speak over him as he tried to totally dominate the conversation, and I don't think he had a clue - especially as we were explicitly told that allowing others to speak was one of the criteria looked for.
Being asked if my husband is home? Refusing to make an appointment unless my husband is here.
And do ask about how your female colleagues choose a garage/builder. Do they add in the ones who don't patronise or seem like they will con her?
Do all the girls at your DDs school have long swishy hair? For older girls what comments are made if they have their hair cut short? My DD at 15 was assumed to be a boy just because she had short hair - she doesn't look boyish at all.
Rape - just look it up - the Tracey Ullman sketch on mugging is good.
Health care - read the book! Why women's heart attacks are often missed. Why Viagra isn't used for period pain.
Count females in films, what are they doing?
Women's shoes.

I hope you are genuine and do look into this for the sake of your DD.

@Reversiblesequinsforadults I had this problem, at my previous place of work I asked for reduced hours to look after my son, I was told by my (female) boss that I didn’t need to cut my hours as “his mum can look after him”, not only does my son not have a mum, but her comment completed ignored my request and assumed a role for another adult. My request was turned down so I had no choice but to quit. My new employer is much better, but staff always make comments that I’m looking after my poorly son if I have to go home early as though it’s innapropriate, yet those with children moan that their childs dad doesn’t (I’m the only man on my team).

My cousin (female) is an emergency contact at nursery, nursery have been informed several times in writing and verbally that they are only to call her if it is a genuine emergency and they haven’t been able to reach me. The last three times they have needed to speak to me they have called her first and asked her to authorise trips etc, despite her not actually being his parent.

Parents at the nursery gate ask for my sons mums phone number to arrange a playdate, not only does she not exist, but instead of arranging it with me they’re attempting to arrange with someone they have never ever seen. One was someone who does drop off and pick up at the same time as me and has done for two years!!

You get people in ‘real’ life and on here trying to decide if it’s acceptable for a man to be a childminder, work in a nursery etc.

You’ll mention a doctor, lawyer etc in passing and people will typically use the words he/him, assuming that someone doing that job must be a man.

Our idea of what it is to be a man or a woman has been out of date for a very very long time, but it is so ingrained in every aspect of society, how do you fix that?

Also for data look at the gender pay gap statistics. Look at violence against women rates compared to the other way round. Look at rape conviction rates. The numbers are out there if you look.

Also the patriarchy does not mean men are all leading wonderful happy lives and women are all oppressed victims.

Just to follow on from previous post I've left my previous sexist workplace and have now set up on my own with another mother. We're much happier.

Yes, we’ve had two female prime ministers. And both took the job at a time when no males wanted the job.

That is often the case around the globe - Women get the top job in very difficult times.

@SimonJT yup, this is all the patriarchy and it's a great example of how it affects men as much as women.

All of those things would infuriate me. But I think the calling your cousin from nursery would be the one that would infuriate me the most. It's so incredibly disrespectful and careless from people who, I assume, should have pretty good idea of your circumstances.

I think OP has done a flounce because we weren't sufficiently subservient to his demands. And all your personal experiences are as nothing to him anyway, because it's not "data". He is allowed to base his worldview on his own narrow experiences and observations, but women have to back it up with statistical analysis.

but women have to back it up with statistical analysis.

Which we can do and have offered him links. But it's not what he wants.

Anyone wanting to know about feminism and patriarchy can inform themselves at the click of a button.

He just wants to moan and expected women, on a feminist board no less, to indulge him.

Patriarchy in action.

I did rather wonder what he imagined the outcome of his posting would be.

Iminthewrongstory probably exactly what he got. Now he can go on other boards on MN and tell everyone about the time he tried to have a reasonable discussion with the nasty women and they were all just mean to him.

Nasty and 'ruthless' even.