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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Genuine question on patriarchy

117 replies

Bodd8 · 22/08/2019 16:42

So.... Ive been on MN for a while but named changed because quite frankly Im scared to ask. I feel that the longer I wait to ask the question more ignorant I am going to feel.

The reason Im asking:
I work in a highly professional environment, male and females are in roughly equal numbers, if not grouped in certain areas. There are several women that I work alongside and they are very good at their jobs and well respected. The pay for consultants and perm staff is set. It doesnt change, its the same for everyone. Its been the same wherever I work. There are also women working in quite higher positions than me. Honest to God, I've never heard anyone make sexist comments, it almost feels like a non entity. I've never personally witnessed any inappropriate behaviour [thats not to say it doesnt happen elsewhere]
You get where Im going with this?
Ive met couples on the school run and made friends, the men Ive made seem to make equal efforts with work, children and home keeping. Their wives seem in no way to be victimised and seem to have the majority of control over the daily activities of the family.

So, Im a divorced man, I was subject to all kinds of abuse from ex wife, including violence. When I finally left her she was very angry and tried to use our child against me. I had been providing the majority of care for our child as we both worked full time, however when it came time to file for joint custody I realised how tough it would be. When I attended court it was all female. All three judges, both solicitors and barristers, CAFCASS, even the justice clerk were all female. The pressure for me to give up and "let Mum do the raising and you can babysit to give Mum a break" was immense.
It has cost me £20k to finally secure joint lives with order, as a man I was not entitled to legal aid despite the domestic violence proof I had, and no one ever suggested that the ex should lose contact.
As man it feels I can only be a real parent if a woman or a judge has allowed it.
Anyway I could go on but I hope you'll understand my point.

The question:
I genuinely struggle to see a patriarchy people talk about, admittedly I live in a town of mostly families in the UK. What are the main points women feel are unfair, and in the genuinely nicest possible way how would I notice or do something differently in my daily life?
Im trying not to be bitter about how hard it is to raise my child in a world that sees me as a second class parent due to my gender. Whilst I understand this might not seem as important to some but Id die ten times over for my child. She is the only thing that matters to me. So Im trying to understand "the other side of things" as it were.
Any insight welcome please.

OP posts:
picklemepopcorn · 23/08/2019 08:34

Bodd, you need to read all the posts again. You've missed it.

Re read, then look for the bits about how jobs women do are under valued and underpaid in comparison with jobs men do.
Re read thinking about this:

The quickest way to reduce the pay in any industry is to recruit more women into it.

Men's manual jobs are paid better than women's manual jobs.

Think about who is impacted by the effect having children has on their earning potential- you are unusual, it's almost always women.

Kit19 · 23/08/2019 08:42

@Bodd8 your post about your sister sacrificing her chance of a family to have a career is a perfect example of the patriarchy in action. Think about why that is only ever said about women....

Bodd8 · 23/08/2019 08:50

Im sorry but I believe that is a fact of life. Wouldnt it be nice to be CEO and also do the school run everyday at 3:15pm but it cant be done. Thats not patriarchy, thats because theres 20 people behind them waiting to stab them in the back if theyre not at the meeting. Thats not a woman problem, anyone has to deal with it, regardless of age/gender/race.

But I know a few male nurses, they arent paid differently, but if men and women choose certain jobs on en mass, isnt that a personal choice.
So we then get to pp point about school, its my understanding that girls do drastically better in school than boys at the moment. I dont remember any subject being more gender orientated [except home economics in the 80s] is there any evidence that girls are steered a certain way?

Ohhhh marketing, I did wander through marketing and it was almost all 20-30s young women. But I just cant see how they were forced or steered into it.

OP posts:
HeyDuggeesCakeBadge · 23/08/2019 08:54

Bodd I can't believe after all the Intelligent, thoughtful responses that women have given you have just dismissed them in an instant because YOU don't see it.

You are being deliberately obtuse.

Datun · 23/08/2019 08:57

The fact that every male ceo with a family never gets told they have sacrificed their family for their career, doesn't strike you bodd?

HeyDuggeesCakeBadge · 23/08/2019 08:58

I don't belive you have posted in good faith and I'm pissed off that after all the effort women have gone to in order to 'educate' you in real life examples you are so willing to dismiss them.

I'm really cross that youve come to a female centred space and demanded we discuss something and then dismissed us - THAT is the patriarchy.

Datun · 23/08/2019 08:58

Oh, I missed that post. It's a choice. Nothing to do with patriarchy.

I don't believe you're posting in good faith, bodd. The child custody thing, the everything is a choice thing, there is no wage pay gap, I know some male nurses.

Absolutely as old as the hills, and very predictable. Total MRA.

OhHimAgain · 23/08/2019 09:04

Wouldnt it be nice to be CEO and also do the school run everyday at 3:15pm but it cant be done. Thats not patriarchy, thats because theres 20 people behind them waiting to stab them in the back if theyre not at the meeting. Thats not a woman problem, anyone has to deal with it, regardless of age/gender/race

Have you ever questioned why 'business' is so unfamily friendly?

The very fact that 'business' is so family unfriendly is because of the patriarchy. That women have found a way to navigate it by 'sacrificing' having children; the fact that you feel you have had to 'sacrifice' your career to raise your daughter is the patriarchy in action because when the system was devised in this way; when society valued business and making money more highly that nurturing and raising the next generation it was because it only included men and raising, nuturing, educating and caring for humans was 'women's work' and wasn't seen as important.

If raising children; having a family was valued, then it would be possible for the CEO to leave to collect their child from school at 3.15pm because that would be regarded as important. And there wouldn't be 20 people waiting behind them to stab them in the back because they'd all be doing the same and it would be valued and respected.

The only reason society; business is structured in the way it is is because it was built around men and their interests and needs with little regard to women. That is patriarchy.

OhHimAgain · 23/08/2019 09:05

I agree that the OP isn't posting in good faith.

The earlier name change fail revealed that.

But I still think it's useful to get thoughts out there.

Kit19 · 23/08/2019 09:07

I don’t believe you’re posting in good faith either so I’m out

Datun · 23/08/2019 09:08

But I still think it's useful to get thoughts out there.

It's really is. It's very informative.

And now the OP has been rumbled, watch the patriarchy swing into overdrive.

Bodd8 · 23/08/2019 09:10

They are intelligent and I’m not being obtuse. It might seem I’m arguing to the contrary but if I’m to genuinely believe something and do anything about it I have to understand it. Data analysis and root cause is a big part of my job so I’m naturally cynical about how data percentages and how they can be used to come to a conclusion. My mindset is always the same, I don’t look for data to support a conclusion, on this thread I’m looking for the evidence for conclusions you’ve already come to. It helps me if I can see an experience I’ve had and think “ah yeah, there’s the patriarchy they’re talking about.

OP posts:
Datun · 23/08/2019 09:13

Read some books bodd. This is just lazy.

FusionChefGeoff · 23/08/2019 09:14

If I am on an evening networking event or required to travel for work, I am always asked 'So who's looking after the children?'

My DH is never asked that question.

Patriarchy.

Just because you don't see it in your extremely narrow frame of life experience being just 1 man out of a whole population doesn't mean it's not theee!

sackrifice · 23/08/2019 09:14

But I just cant see how they were forced or steered into it.

Do you do any of these things just to stay safe?

Posting again as you blithely ignored it.

Do you not think women or girls are forced into anything at all, even when they have the threat of male violence over their heads at all times?

Genuine question on patriarchy
HeyDuggeesCakeBadge · 23/08/2019 09:17

Do your own research Bodd stop expecting women to do the leg work for you.

You are coming across as arrogant and entitled.

CheckingOutTheQuantocks · 23/08/2019 09:19

If Bodd8 is the same person as Parent999, there is no point in engaging with him. He's just an old-fashioned misogynist who likes to hang around on the Relationships board and moan about evil wimmin trying to stop children from seeing their fathers. He doesn't want to understand patriarchy or anything else to do with feminism, he just wants to waste your time and get a load of women running around posting links to resources that he has no intention of reading.

Do not throw any more fish to the sealion.

Bodd8 · 23/08/2019 09:20

Oh never mind, I am seriously trying to have a conversation with real people about this but it seems if I dont immediately agree with you Im being obtuse. There have been some people who have posted useful thoughts and I do genuinely thank you. But I must say, I havent demanded anyone talk to me, you are free to post or scroll on, I thank you if you have posted. Theres too much to take on so I can only pick some issues that I have knowledge of and try to understand it that way.

For those that are ostracising me for not immediately agreeing, thats closer to a cult than a movement. Im sorry youre frustrated with my responses but I assure you it was good faith.

OP posts:
sackrifice · 23/08/2019 09:23

I don’t look for data to support a conclusion, on this thread I’m looking for the evidence for conclusions you’ve already come to.

If you can't see the problem then you are the problem.

sackrifice · 23/08/2019 09:25

Theres too much to take on so I can only pick some issues that I have knowledge of and try to understand it that way.

So the issue of male violence as a threat on a daily basis? What is your opinion on that?

Datun · 23/08/2019 09:25

This is a wind up, surely. You're asking women about the patriarchy, they're telling you, giving you reading lists and examples, and you're disputing it because of your own singular, personal, male experience! Despite claiming that data analysis is very important to you and part of your job.

Go and read the data.

Stop expecting women to do your homework.

powershowerforanhour · 23/08/2019 09:29

I don’t look for data to support a conclusion, on this thread I’m looking for the evidence
Yawn. You're a lazy bollix aren't you?
No point in trying to teach the wilfully ignorant.

CheckingOutTheQuantocks · 23/08/2019 09:31

Theres too much to take on so I can only pick some issues that I have knowledge of and try to understand it that way

I think that's what you data types call cherry-picking, isn't it?

Bodd8 · 23/08/2019 09:35

Oh come on guys, please, its now 3 pages of posts, over night, Im trying to keep up. I have a lot of thoughts about all of it. I have read a lot about it, I havent read what youve posted yet. I came here for a discussion because I will always prefer to speak to people and their personal experiences.

I am not trolling and I am not a misogynist. I freely admit that I advocate equal shared parenting.
But I will say this, I flatly refuse to let my daughter suffer because of what other men or women do. I am not other men.

OP posts:
OhHimAgain · 23/08/2019 09:37

Ok, Bodd.

My last contribution on this because all your talk of analysing data, whilst ignoring the details of the posts given, is pointless.

I am a primary school teacher - that most female of professions.

I went for a job interview (that was going really well) and was told, during the interview, that going on an annual 5 day residential was a requirement of the job. I was asked if childcare would be an issue for me to cover this. I replied that, no, my husband would be at home and so there were no childcare issues. There were raised eyebrows and I was asked (in all seriousness, it wasn't lighthearted) if my husband would be "ok" with that.

My (now ex) husband had a job that required him to work away from home fairly frequently - sometimes just an overnight, never longer than 5 days.

He was never asked. Not once. What his childcare arrangements would be or whether his wife would mind being left to look after the children alone whilst he was away with work.

Why do you think that is?

Oh, and I didn't get the job. The interviewer noticeably lost interest after that part of the interview.