To those who visit the board and believe in gender identity, what is your solution?

[Doyoumind]

I've been on Twitter again and seen another interesting thread but I'm not going to post it here so it can be picked apart.

Instead, although I know it's been asked before, to those of you who believe someone can be a woman without biologically being one I ask the question: What do you think should be put in place in law to provide safe spaces for trans people and women and what are you doing about it?

Ah, I was wondering how long it would be before the insults were rolled out. Now we don't just have a different viewpoint. We're idiots for not agreeing with you.

Yep, telling which so called "side" just can't help themselves, isn't it?
Not interested at all in listening to anything else.

To say that you can feel like a woman and therefore so can a man and so they are entitled to the same rights/ requirements as women is not only offensive and illogical, it's down right sexist.

Society needs to stop defining biology by shallow stereotypes.

Incapable of proper discussion.
Playground.

Cherry pick comments away and ignore those who are debating in order to smear. Gaslighting at its finest.

"But homosexuality and religion are based on feelings ...."

Except if you try to claim one or the other when applying for asylum etc, you have to provide some proof, that your claim is serious. So, claiming to be a muslim, say, whilst knowing nothing about the koran, and still attending the local baptist church every sunday, and planning to get married there next week, might be seen as not totally consistent. Similarly, if someone claimed to be a lesbian, but was currently dating and sleeping with a male, you might wonder. The facts of someone homosexuality, BTW, could be established, by testing what someone was or wasn't sexually aroused by (as too many gay men know to their cost when the standard treatment was show them pictures of naked men and give them electric shocks when they get aroused).

But this isn't really the point, as long as you allow religious groups to restrict entry to places of worship as they see fit (you can't come in, you worship next door with the baptists, we've seen you!), or allow groups to say 'sorry, you can't bring you boyfriend with you to the lesbian social'. If someone wants to call themselves a lesbian or a muslim, when others consider by their behaviour they do not qualify, that is fine. We are not required to believe whatever someone else says about themselves, when their actions contradict what they say. We are allowed to have our own opinion!

Yet when someones biology contradicts what someone says, we are supposedly not allowed to disagree. And surely the grounds for making distinctions in the latter case is stronger than just behaviour, especially given that it is actually rather important to keep stating that womanhood is not defined by what you wear, how you act etc, but by your biology.

There is no secret 'essence of lesbian', it's just you fancy women and not men, simples. Yet there is supposedly some secret 'essence of woman'...........

A legal term requires a definition.

Still waiting, despite imprecation and deflection: what is your proposed replacement of the current definition of "woman" under law?
Again, the meaning of the word "definition" is the "formal meaning of the word" which is not "what it feels like to be the word."

If you want legal change, you have to be able to articulate it in words. Grown-ups very definitely understand that.

Homosexuality and religion are not feelings. They are practices.

The problem is that people who are gay and people that are religious don't try to make me collude in their belief

Hmm, I dunno -
I mean, aren't there a lot of homophobic people out there?
Who say that their way is un-natural (NOT my view btw, just saying!), and actively say their children shouldn't be exposed to gay relationships?
They're of the belief that men and women only together family wise, and campaign against it and in some cases/countries pass laws to discriminate.
With trans, isn't it a case of some people (not all) thinking children shouldn't know about trans, that it's un-natural, there's only man and woman and that's it?

I think there's some parallels in the argument, I know people won't agree with me though and that's fine.

not protected as feelings, that is. Protected as practices.

You don't want definitions. You want to obscure the matter. One definition leads to a demand for another and another and another.

Cherry pick comments away and ignore those who are debating in order to smear. Gaslighting at its finest

I'm not ignoring those who actually debate, there's some on the thread who are discussing.
I'm on about the ones of which there are some who just post images and piss take instead of engage.

I agree. There are plenty of people who feel that homosexuality impinges on their lives by its very existence.

You don't want definitions. You want to obscure the matter. One definition leads to a demand for another and another and another

Yep!

I think there's some parallels in the argument, I know people won't agree with me though and that's fine.*

There are huge parallels between gender ideology and religion hence why i think GI should be considered a belief esp with self-ID where no medical diagnoses is req

There isn't a solution to the problem where everyone will be happy.

Trans people don't want separate loos. Creating a space for them means we are excluding them in their eyes. They want our space. Being excluded makes trans people suicidal apparently, the same reason why 10 year olds should be given puberty blockers.

I don't understand why they can't be happy with a new space created for them. 🤷‍♀️ I'm not bothered about someone who looks like a woman using a loo next to me, what I am bothered about is the safe guarding challenge when men who look like men, self id for their own perversion. It doesnt matter how many times someone says this won't happen, it is happening and it's not fair. Our sense of unfair doesnt compare to theirs..

What makes you think trans women are safe from men who pretend to be women so they can assault someone?

If trans women presented as women then they would, as they have always done, used the womens loos. We don't run chromosome tests for use of the loo and turn away xy. The problem for me is men looking like men entering these spaces and using self id and transphobia to muscle their way in there. Gender neutral toilets, and single sex toilets is a great solution but one trans people don't want.

With other spaces, such as red tents, I don't know why they can't make their own blue tent, or pink glitter tent or whatever. Why do they need to take over someone else's space

Again -- deflection.

The law requires a definition.

If you're going to change the definition of "woman" in law, you must provide the new definition.

Is the new definition to be: adult human female and males who state they are an adult human female?

Or is to be something else?

I'm not the one obfuscating here. I'm also not the one who wants the law changed. You do. So state the new definition.

What makes you think trans women are safe from men who pretend to be women so they can assault someone?

How do they or we tell the difference between the "real" transwomen and the "fake" ones?

Having 3 categories provides for everyone, male/female/unisex but TRA wont accept that.

There's a difference between sex and gender, thus you could feel like a woman, have surgery to look like a woman but genetically you are still a man. Where feasible we should accommodate those in society with gender dysphoria, but it will very depending on setting so things like clothing, uniform and the like let them wear what they want, in other low risk situations eg shop changing rooms let them go where they want, but where possible an option of mixed gender facilities should be offered for leisure centre changing rooms etc which work for families (my local has female, male, adapted and 3 family cabins which are unisex.).

For places like prison if there's sufficient numbers a specific unit should be established in the grounds of a male prison, just like they have for high risk female prisoners already, but it's a case by case basis.

Let people live how they want is really my thoughts but I would like to see a ban on any hormone treatment or surgery under 18 and compulsory counselling for at least 12 months before any medication can be prescribed - I know people can go overseas but we have to try, I know 4 young people who came out as trans in their teens, two have subsequently changed their mind (one is now in a straight relationship, the other in a gay one)

How do you tell the difference? If you are in a woman only space, how do you know who is trans and who isn't? Do you ask for proof of everyone around you?

The few trans women I have worked with were really happy with single sex and gender neutral loos. They felt they had a space for them that they could be comfortable in.

TRAs want our space. Not unhappy confused people who desperately want to be something other than what they are.

I agree with dodge and navigator

If you change the definition of man and woman in law then that will impact on the laws in place to protect homosexuals as laws on homosexuality are based on the definitions of man and woman.

The trans people I know come in the bathroom with me.

I asked, Roses, to see if you would pop off there with your transphobic views on biology, hang around for a few weeks and pop back to update us on your views

Biology isn't transphobic, it's fact. You can't biologically change sex, not yet anyway (who knows in the future what you can do)
regardless of whatever the extreme end says.
It's like the extreme end of GC - they don't speak for everyone, a lot have more moderate views where they're just legitimately concerned about self ID