To those who visit the board and believe in gender identity, what is your solution?

[Doyoumind]

I've been on Twitter again and seen another interesting thread but I'm not going to post it here so it can be picked apart.

Instead, although I know it's been asked before, to those of you who believe someone can be a woman without biologically being one I ask the question: What do you think should be put in place in law to provide safe spaces for trans people and women and what are you doing about it?

I disagree Field. They experience sexual harassment and discrimination because they are a TW.

It's fine to be different but for legislation we require a framework that can define what people are.

But homosexuality and religion are based on feelings and we manage to legislate for them just fine. Feelings are real, just because some people feel differently to you, it does not make their feelings less real or authentic for them.

But homosexuality and religion are based on feelings and we manage to legislate for them just fine. Feelings are real, just because some people feel differently to you, it does not make their feelings less real or authentic for them.

This, good point well made

I asked, Roses, to see if you would pop off there with your transphobic views on biology, hang around for a few weeks and pop back to update us on your views.

Please continue to use MN also in the meantime.

Are you seriously comparing being gay to belief in a female essence? Do you want to think that through a little bit more carefully?
The comparison with religion is apt. But legislation does not currently require me to believe in or endorse or in any way alter my own life to cater to others religious beliefs. Genderism as a belief system currently is demanding those things. And it needs to stop.

Sorry you went through that bd67th.

It is a logical and consistent argument that you make. But the other side of that is: How many non dangerous law abiding TW do we punish because there might be a pervy male breaking the law?

Oh, FFS.

Definition: the meaning of the word "definition" is: the formal meaning of a word.

Under the Equality Act, the formal meaning of the word "woman" ie the DEFINITION is: adult human female. That's also, not surprisingly, the dictionary definition.

If you're arguing that in law the DEFINITION, ie the formal meaning of the word "woman" is to be replaced by another formal meaning -- what is the formal meaning you propose?

THAT is what people are asking. Because you can't change laws without using words, and words have definitions.

What Transactivists are proposing is that the DEFINITION, the formal meaning of the word, "Woman" in law be changed to: Adult human female plus any adult human male who states they are a woman ie an adult human female.

Essences and feelings might be what moves a male to state that, but they don't enter into the proposed new DEFINITION at all.

What GC feminists are asking on these boards is: do you agree with this proposed new definition?

And if not, but you still feel the definition should be changed, what is YOUR proposed new definition of the word "woman"?

What idiots on Twitter constantly say is the word doesn't need definining. Which is idiocy precisely because rights legislation requires that it be defined.

So define it.

And now define the word "punish."

I for one have never seen it to mean: being unable to access spaces one is not entitled to under law while being able to access equivalent spaces specifically established for one under law and/or being unable to access set-asides set up to ameliorate millennia of subjugation of the sex one is not by the sex one is.

I believe the word "punish" would come into play if there were no equivalent spaces males could access but that is not the case; in fact there are more such spaces for males than there are for females.

And please define the words "risk management."

For fucks sake.

A poster on the last thread described in painful detail how a man raped her at age 5. To point out how offensive it is for Males to say they feel female.

Fuck that.

Could she say, I feel like a boy don't rape me?

Feel how you want to feel. That's fine and I'll have empathy with people who's brains can't cope with their biological reality, often due to sexual abuse. It's dysphoria. I've experienced it in a different way. Many people experience it due to different facial features or comments made to them at some key point in their lives which they fixate on.

But it's fucking offensive to say there should be legislation based on feels that directly spits in the face of women about their real lives experiences.

And anyway, it's law.

twitter.com/iamtranssexual/status/1156101319737925634?s=21

Those in favour of gender identity, why cant it be protected as a belief that people have a right to belive or not?

I respect another persons right to believe in gender identity but should have my right to not believe respected.

In fact, shall we just let lonelyt explain it? who is trans?

*But transwomen don’t look like men?”

“Woman” is not a costume; it’s a biological sex. Attached to that biological sex are certain expectations as to presentation but the essence of what it means to be a woman is not in appearance. A woman with short hair and no makeup is no less a woman than someone with long flowing golden locks and immaculate makeup.
By the same token a man with long hair and makeup is no less a man than a stereotypical beer bellied, balding man burping over a lager slumped in front of a football match on TV.

Yes, I love makeup and I feel comfortable in makeup but it doesn’t change my sex. Society needs to stop defining biology by shallow stereotypes.*

lonelyts.blog/2019/07/31/why-i-am-a-man/

We don't force beliefs on others.

We don't force people to church. Or to believe in a god/s.

Etc etc etc..

Once again, this thread was a total setup to lure people to give an opinion and then pile on them when it is different to yours.

You're acting like a bunch of twatty teenagers with your shady digs and belittling other opinions. Let's post pictures of essence of women to belittle someone's perspective. If you're going to call yourself 'adult human females' fucking grow up then.

I started the thread and it wasn't a set up.

I genuinely want a solution to the problem.

It's great to see steps are being taken to clarify existing laws but we are in danger of losing those existing protections.

And how does posting pictures further the goal of resolving this issue?

Part of being a grown up is recognising silliness when you see it. And being robust enough to take it, when someone tells you you’re guilty of it.
What is thoroughly juvenile is this notion that beliefs should be accorded respect no matter how stupid. No. The sanity of humanity at large demands that idiocy is seen for what it is and, yes, occasionally mocked.

Those in favour of gender identity, why cant it be protected as a belief that people have a right to belive or not?

It’s a medical diagnosis in ICD11. Isn’t that a bit like saying why can’t schizophrenia or depression be a belief?

Ah, I was wondering how long it would be before the insults were rolled out. Now we don't just have a different viewpoint. We're idiots for not agreeing with you.

We don't force beliefs on others.

We don't force people to church. Or to believe in a god/s.

So why are we being forced to believe in gender ideology or face being arrested, losing our jobs... because this has happened to women who dont believe!

It’s a medical diagnosis in ICD11. Isn’t that a bit like saying why can’t schizophrenia or depression be a belief?

Not with self-ID its not

No, you’re not idiots for not agreeing with me. Unlike some, I don’t evaluate everything with reference to myself. Statements re essences etc are mocked because they are objectively silly. And it is right that they should be. If we give every crazy notion people on the internet spout intellectual houseroom we will all go mad.

And now define the word "punish.
And please define the words "risk management

No thank you

It is not objectively silly. It's an entirely subjective opinion whether someone's description of their life experience is silly or not and you are not wise to mistake your personal opinions for absolute facts.

Once again, this thread was a total setup to lure people to give an opinion and then pile on them when it is different to yours. You're acting like a bunch of twatty teenagers with your shady digs and belittling other opinions. Let's post pictures of essence of women to belittle someone's perspective. If you're going to call yourself 'adult human females' fucking grow up then.

Yep, well said, that poster
right on cue like I said it would lol
Think some are 5 years old on this forum.
This must be what it means by no debate.
There literally isn't one.
Incapable of proper discussion.
Playground.

Feelings are real, just because some people feel differently to you, it does not make their feelings less real or authentic for them

The problem is that people who are gay and people that are religious don't try to make me collude in their belief. I can possibly get my head around that someone may prefer to have been born the opposite sex and want to 'present' (whatever that means) as the opposite sex. But to demand that we all believe they are the opposite sex and that we have to be re-educated to believe it or face being dismissed from work or a criminal record is just a step too far.
The problem stems back to the GRA where legal fictions were allowed. A third way is the only way imo. Transwomen are transwomen not women - and that should be reflected on legal documents such as passports.
But the problem is that that doesn't validate transwomens' feelings.
That is why a third way or discussion or some sort of accommodation won't work. It doesn't matter that some women are happy to accept transwomen in their spaces - most are not and sex based rights have to trump feelings. For transpeople it is all or nothing regardless of who is trampled on.
And I cannot subscribe to that at all.