Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

This is a good thread about female trans allies

999 replies

Doyoumind · 30/07/2019 16:00

twitter.com/overpow_erin_g/status/1156003798898241543?s=19

Thoughtful insights into how some women get drawn into the wrong side of the debate.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
BickerinBrattle · 31/07/2019 08:12

I’m not belittling anything about the gay rights movement, far from it. I’m just trying to understand your sense of a history I was present for.
Right now I’m wondering about this middle-class takeover of the gay rights movement —- was that before or after Section 28, Anita Bryant in America, the assassination of Harvey Milk, and then tens of millions of gay men dying of Aids?

Though I readily concede that Pride has been utterly corporatised, and I’m aware that happened only after all the bodies were buried.

RedToothBrush · 31/07/2019 08:23

Whether you like to admit it or not, gender critical organisations are funded by the far right.

I touched on this up thread when I mentioned the culture war and how there is this thing where you have to choose whether you are 'one of them' or 'one of us'. This is the foundation of 'liberal identity' shit and where a lot of unquestioning bollocks comes from because of authoritarian crowd control techniques.

In actual fact the nature of gender critical thought which has the 'sacred value' of analysing the issue before the need to belong means that many people who are gender critical are outside BOTH 'sides' of this authoritarian culture war. They actively reject the politics of control of both sides as neither serves their interests. Authoritarianism generally speaking never serves women because it is top down power t o control the population and that particularly affects women because of their role in society.

The whole fallacy that being gender critical is be funded by the right wing is a specific propaganda technic to force people to confirm and obey what's coming from above on the left. It's bullshit.

Not only that, but the grassroots women's organisations in the UK, do have a leftist history.

That's not to say there are not right wing and indeed far right opposite to the trans agenda. There is. But there is also a distinct movement from the left too, and the 'liberal identity' crowd are trying to discredit this movement on the left because they see it as a threat to their ideology by smearing it by associating it with the right.

Many gender critical women here have actively said they do not feel represented by any political party in the UK anymore because of this authoritarian and support for bullshit identity politics as it effectively marginalised and crushes debate which they feel an essential part of scrutiny and safeguarding against abuses of power - which tend to affect women and children more than men - purely because their bodies and worth in society make them more vulnerable.

So no, what you say is a deliberate mischaracterisation and smear to prop up the authoritian 'liberal left' rather than them actually be liberal and of the left by consensus of the population.

It is a power grab by those in authority in those circles and its against pretty much every thing they profess to stand for.

It is not gender critical women who have betrayed the left and liberalism, it is those who stand in the name of the left and liberalism who have betrayed the rights of women.

DickKerrLadies · 31/07/2019 08:26

Great post Red, much better than the reply I'd drafted!

I hope our new visitors and posters read it, rather than just dismiss it outright.

Lamahaha · 31/07/2019 08:48

We can't have these debates if, instead of engaging with the issues, you smugly retreat into an endless repetition of 'how can a person change sex?'

I've never heard this question on MN. What I hear is the statement: "A person cannot change sex."

I want a debate about white supremacy and the fact that many cultures across the world (including India, many African tribal societies and a range of Native American cultures) recognised gender as being distinct from biology until the British Empire colonised them and made laws outlawing any deviation from binary sex expression. I want to talk about how it's still an expression of white supremacy to insist that these other cultures had it wrong, that the white European model of binary gender is the only valid one.

Brattle has made some excellent arguments and there's a lot I don't know about LGB+T history, as I haven't followed that debate until recently, being a boring old heterosexual grandmother.

But I CAN speak on behalf of colonised peoples, all three groups you mention, since I have both African and Native American ancestry and upbringing, and a very close association with India, having lived there and studied their myths and ideologies and philosophies on a fairly deep level over decades.

The assertion that it's European colonisers who outlawed and eventually abolished some utopian world of gender-fluid happy magical natives is, sorry, wishful thinking.

I've lived among NA tribes in South America who have managed to uphold their original culture and resist European culture, (women topless, own language etc) and I assure you that the binary expression of sex is even more embedded in such societies as in modern Europe. Men are men, women are women, and they live in almost separate worlds.

As for India have you read the great Hindu epic, Mahabharata? You should, since it probably has the very first literary transsexual character and yes, "transsexual", not "transgender". The princess Amba receives the boon that she can change sex through a mantra, and becomes a man (bodily!) so that she can herself avenge herself of an insult and kill a great warrior, Bhishma, who has divine protection meaning he can only be killed when he chooses death. She becomes the male warrior Sikhandin. The book has many strands, but that storyline is one of the main ones.

Then again, one of the main Mahabharata characters, Arjuna, is cursed with becoming a eunuch for one year, and he basically lives in a woman's body for that year -- a very entertaining year, the Indians have great fun with that storyline, since he wears women's clothing and goes to live in the women's quarters of a palace, teaching the young girls song and dance! A lot of misgendering and confusion ensues....! So yes, the Indians of yore did play around with the idea of changing sex. But still: the basic model, strictly adhered to, is binary: male and female.

In fact, traditional Hindu philosophy, many thousands of years old and at the basis of most Indian culture (and in which Yoga has it's original roots and derives its teaching) expressly repudiates the very existence of gender as a reality. This philosophy sees us all as having a basic consciousness that is free of all attributes, male and female being merely attributes along with others such as profession, nationality, race etc: all only mental concepts, superimposed on that basic consciousness. This true Self- is the actual source of happiness; if you're unhappy if you think you're a woman female you would be equally unhappy if you think you're a man, as both are only mental concepts. It's better to simply be, without thinking I am a man or I am a woman. Your body and its experiences are your given parametres: accept them.

If you know anything of Yoga, you might know that harmony of body and mind is one of the basic aims, the very antithesis of gender dysphoria or concepts of "identity" and "gender" that reject the body's material reality. Rather, it would seek to heal us of body dysphoria of any kind.

White people like to appear oh so woke by citing brown-people traditions, without knowing much about them at all. I've given a quick and clumsy explanation as to how you are usually so very, very wrong. Go and actually live with these cultures and you'd see how quickly your trans-ideas fall away.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 31/07/2019 08:48

This thread is fascinating. Great posts overnight from Bicker

VivienneHolt, you said you're happy to debate transgenderism

That's brilliant, because I have a question that I never get an answer to. I am a simple person, so my question is simple

How are transwomen women? what do Theresa May and Jane Fae share that makes them both women, but means Boris Johnson is not a woman?

if I'm going to give up my privacy, safety and dignity, please xplain to me the basis on which I'm doing it

Datun · 31/07/2019 09:04

A fascinating thread. Very informative.

It will interesting to see whether anyone debates the actual points made. Not to mention, novel.

Datun · 31/07/2019 09:06

And also the idea over whether you can change sex or not? It is fundamental.

Because it's no good saying it's about gender identity not sex, dimwits. And then demand that you access everything on the basis of sex.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 31/07/2019 09:32

There might be a lot of sniping and insults from all, but frankly I'm delighted to see people from both sides on the same board. I would LOVE to see a respectful discussion of these issues.

I say this as someone who doesn't fit in with either 'side' - I'm not a radical feminist, I don't believe anyone can change sex and I think women (XX women) need their own spaces. In vulnerable situations - rape centres, DV refuges, hospitals, schools, prisons and yes toilets, women need single sex spaces.

And I simply want, (sometimes), to be around women who have shared the same things I have - periods, pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding, sexism, dv, rape, mothering, etc. In those situations, I want to be able to discuss my female experience and no, I don't want transwomen in women-only space.

In many/most spaces, absolutely fine. I've no beef with how anybody wishes to live, present, dress, act. But transwomen are not women.

I resent that I am apparently to be 'educated' out of my feelings on this, and I resent that I can't discuss this openly. I resent that women's voices are silenced.

I also don't think it's right to presume anyone's motives or background.

I don't like insults, from anyone. I wouldn't call anyone 'terf' for the same reasons I wouldn't call anyone 'cowbag' or 'handmaiden' or 'bitch'.

So, I'm not sure if the women discussed last night are still about - if you are, hello. I'm sure we have plenty in common. As you say, most of us here are trying to do the right thing. I can appreciate your views, as I probably went mostly along with them for a certain amount of time. Can you appreciate mine? Am I bigoted to wish to exclude people with xy chromosomes from, say, my breastfeeding group? From a dv shelter? From a menopause support group?

LangCleg · 31/07/2019 09:46

Whether you like to admit it or not, gender critical organisations are funded by the far right.

Oh, bless. Does one laugh or cry to see Jenn arrive on a thread about propaganda and social dynamics leading to cult beliefs only to parrot them in utter outrage because nobody in her movement can understand a class-based analysis or an examination of social forces, dynamics and pressures without a lens of injury to personal identity.

Only in this way can fivers and tenners from ordinary women be positioned as "far right funding" when hundreds of millions of dollars from a hard right Republican such as Jennifer Pritzker and fortunes from every establishment grant-making body are not.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 31/07/2019 09:51

gender critical organisations are funded by the far right

Source for this statement? I mean, it sounds pretty unlikely to me but I'd like to see evidence.

LangCleg · 31/07/2019 09:53

And as for the historical revisionism Bickerin elaborates on so well. Let's have some real documentation from the time.

Here's a Twitter thread from Rafa:

Our Foremothers and Forefathers Knew What Was Up - A Thread.

Statement against Transvestism

from Drag Magazine, “A Magazine about the Transvestite” or “The International Transvestite Quarterly”, 1975, vol. 5, no. 18, pp. 36, 37, 39, 42 & 47.

As you can see from reading the thread, the Lesbian Rising Collective & Gay Men's Alliance was objecting to TV colonisation even then. In the US. And here is the magazine in question. If you want to see how the "trans community" saw itself in 1975, compared to the revisionism of today, it's a fascinating read.

archive.org/details/drag518unse

NeurotrashWarrior · 31/07/2019 10:08

gender critical organisations are funded by the far right

I came to my own conclusions about GC via experiences in my childhood, initially how desperately a small boy in my class wanted to "be a girl" as he was being picked on for playing in the home corner. He wasn't the issue, gender was.

Every female friend I know sees GC theory as obvious, so obvious they don't understand why it has to be 'debated.'

My male gay friends know why they aren't attracted to trans men and my lesbian female and heterosexual male friends know why they aren't attracted to trans women.

No one is part of any organisation.

Would really love to hear how the image below "I didn't get to be a little girl" sits against the many, daily images of female babies dumped on rubbish dumps or aborted who really didn't get to be a little girl.

This is a good thread about female trans allies
BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 31/07/2019 10:10

gender critical organisations are funded by the far right

That caught my eye

As someone who has contributed money and time to a couple of these organisations I’d really appreciate seeing evidence of this Jenn ?

Or some specifics about which organisations you have in mind? Because I’d hate to think that you’re accusing people like Kiri Trunks, Ruth Serwotka or Nicola Williams of undertaking activity funded by the far right. That would be grossly unfair and inaccurate

RedToothBrush · 31/07/2019 10:13

Because I’d hate to think that you’re accusing people like Kiri Trunks, Ruth Serwotka or Nicola Williams of undertaking activity funded by the far right. That would be grossly unfair and inaccurate

And also potentially libellous!

RedToothBrush · 31/07/2019 10:14

Oh wait, that's exactly why you won't hear anymore than a vague accusation... Cos it wouldn't stand up in court.

2BthatUnnoticed · 31/07/2019 10:16

I agree Scrimshaw, I would welcome the dialogue with Jenn and others. I think because VRR is in Canada, and likewise now JY, people in the UK are less aware of how some TRA actions result in damage or pain to marginalised women.

ScottishJenn · 31/07/2019 10:18

Lmao not one single one of you cares to comment on the misogynistic and downright offensive thread this is. You all need to take a long hard look in the mirror.

And as for the comment on trauma - no, it's your lot asking "have YOU ever been assaulted" and "well when you're attacked in a bathroom" and "who hurt you" and "you don't know what it's like to be raped" that is triggering for a survivor. Not that any of you actually give a shit about that, as shown by the comment of "well I'm sure they had it worse". Your privilege and entitlement is so prominent you fail to remotely see that women can have all forms of experiences, at many different ages, and your assumption is young white woman have experienced nothing while simultaneously trying to pass the third and fourth wave of feminism off of being about "women are equal" when it is, in fact, anything but.

The glaring lack of informed reading or education about history is obvious and frankly shameful. Your white washing of women of colour is racist too.

I came here to make it clear exactly what I think of women who use the internet to attack and belittle a young women. I've done that. You all done care, as I suspected, and that's for you to live with. Not me.

Ciao.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 31/07/2019 10:21

This ^ is what makes me think genderism is like a cult

I thought once Jenn turned up people were reasonably kind to her actually. They asked questions and tried to engage her

but it always ends up in the furious flounce

questions that you can;t answer and that make you angry. If this is happening in your life, maybe you need to think about why

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 31/07/2019 10:21

The truth is that trans ideology and funding is coming from men of all political viewpoints. The resistance to it is coming from women.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 31/07/2019 10:26

I didn't really like the twitter thread that started this conversation tbh. I thought it made some decent points but also displayed a bit of a superiority complex that didn't sit well with me

but one of the things that rang true was the like of twitter 'likes' Jenn and her ilk get from the males they are furiously defending

You turn up for demos organised to support males. Where are the males at the demos you set up? Do you dare to set any up?

it's not a quid pro quo Jenn. You're cannon fodder.

LangCleg · 31/07/2019 10:27

Lmao not one single one of you cares to comment on the misogynistic and downright offensive thread this is.

Because you cannot understand an analysis of the social, only the subjective standpoint of an individual.

Which is why this movement self-identifies as left but in reality is of the right: hyper individualist, ultra libertarian, defaulting to extant power structures.

VivienneHolt · 31/07/2019 10:27

That's brilliant, because I have a question that I never get an answer to. I am a simple person, so my question is simple

How are transwomen women? what do Theresa May and Jane Fae share that makes them both women, but means Boris Johnson is not a woman?

I very much doubt you've never had an answer to this question. Much more likely you've never had an answer you're willing to accept. That's your prerogative, but don't pretend you've literally never seen this question addressed.

My answer? Trans women are women because womanhood is not determined by biology. Gender is a separate, innate aspect of your identity. That's why if you woke up tomorrow and found that your personhood had magically been downloaded into a biologically male body, you wouldn't instantly know yourself to be male. That's why so many cultures in the world have for centuries recognised gender expressions which exist outside of the sex binary.

I don't expect you to agree with or accept my answer, but you can't pretend you haven't been given one.

if I'm going to give up my privacy, safety and dignity, please xplain to me the basis on which I'm doing it

I see this idea a lot and it puzzles me, because it seems like a thought which has occurred ten years too late. Transgender people have been entitled to use the gender-segregated facilities of the gender they identify as since the Equality Act (and they haven't had to show a GR certificate to do so). Rape crisis centres already support trans women. I live in Scotland, and Rape Crisis Scotland are fully supportive of trans rights, and recognise trans women as an important and valuable part of their community. They have been supporting women (including trans women) in crisis for years; I trust their views on this.

I would also like you to explain what privacy, safety and dignity you are actually being asked to give up. Can you give specific examples? They can be hypothetical if that helps.

RedToothBrush · 31/07/2019 10:30

Lmao not one single one of you cares to comment on the misogynistic and downright offensive thread this is. You all need to take a long hard look in the mirror.

Im looking at it from a point of view that authoritarianism is inherently misogynistic in nature and that women who are caught up in cult like behaviour are victims of it. They certainly are not free of it.

Expressing that observation is not misogynistic. It is an observation of misogyny and how it manifests and how we can be victims of it.

You are building a straw man argument which is based on a reversal fallacy.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 31/07/2019 10:30

I still haven't been given an answer VivienneHolt

Trans women are women because womanhood is not determined by biology

OK, with you so far. what is womanhood determined by? I;d really appreciate an explanation

Thanks for coming back to answer by the way - I appreciate it

littlbrowndog · 31/07/2019 10:32

Jeez why the anger and flouncing and what seems like rage without engagement