This is a good thread about female trans allies

[Doyoumind]

twitter.com/overpow_erin_g/status/1156003798898241543?s=19

Thoughtful insights into how some women get drawn into the wrong side of the debate.

Lang, are you misreading what I'm saying - it was in response to "they're telling me I'm wrong" comment upthread - no I'm not, I haven't said anyone is wrong at all, that's their experience and that's fine.
I'm saying what it is for ME.
Why have you put all that under my comment you highlighted when I wasn't even talking about that there?

Unlike people who constantly telling me my experience is made up.

Maybe I would feel weird as a man. I've been thinking it over. Like a dick would be okay (just a huge clitoris), but manly hands would be weird, and I'm not sure I could do manspreading without feeling self conscious.

Sorry, that was silly, I just mean, maybe it's not so straightforward to know if you have a gender identity or not.

Of course a male body would be weird. A different female body would be weird. A different race. A child. All really weird. Maybe redtoothbrush was right about that, it was an unhelpful thought experiment because of the limits of imagining.

Been away and came back to find the debate goes on.

Regarding the gender identity question, sorry, but I'm going to link to another Twitter thread.

twitter.com/Number1SCUM/status/1156144736714891264?s=19

What I find odd within the discussion of gender is that people seem to want to talk about gender identity as a different kind of thing that tribal identity, or national identity, or any of the other kinds of identities we have.

It is condemned when people claim or try to appropriate particular tribal or national identities when they do not meet the criteria for those identities.

What experience Roses?

It’s the old ‘what’s the difference between Rachel Dolezal’s identity and Caitlin Jenner’s identity?’ Question innit

Never get an answer to that one either

What experience?
Now I know you really are just being obtuse for the sake of it.

"I've told you the answer, you've been given the answer, you just don't like the answer."

Except.

"I'm not sure what the answer is, it's unknown, we haven't quite worked it out."

Don't fucking expect laws and protocols be based on it, then.

And please, for the love of God, do not use Alok Vain as a means to take the moral high ground. 🤣

I've never even mentioned Alok Vein.

Vain even,. thank you auto correct for that!

Don't fucking expect laws and protocols be based on it, then.

^^ this. Geez.

Interesting to think about other types of identity as suggested by goosefoot.
some concept of identity seems pretty innate to humans, we need to live in societies that cooperate and therefore we create a common identity or set of identities. That encode principles, morals,ways of living? Encode short cuts for our brains,

It’s often pinned to observable things like where you were born but not everyone born in England will identify as English and many people who identify as English will reject others becuase of their skin colour. So any identity is not uniformly agreed. It’s about belonging. we could even say that within identify as English there are really at least 2 tribes, one of which is more racist than the other. Not everyone identifies as any nationality. ( even if they are legally a specific nationality) I prefer to think of myself as European for example.

Making identity a human construct which serves some useful purpose for us.
So genders identity is not of itself innate, but people for whom gender is important will identify that way

I'm telling you what it is for ME

Are you?

doing a great job all of convincing people who don't share your view that you have a point.

You can't convince anyone who has a cultlike belief. It wouldn't matter what you said, would it? The belief is the belief.

Whenever I make a comment, it's never directed at those people.

They do, however, give me all the opportunity I need to talk to the people to whom I am directing my comments.

It is condemned when people claim or try to appropriate particular tribal or national identities when they do not meet the criteria for those identities.

Not really my point though. We don't try and say that there is not some mechanism by which people develop their sense of identity, as some are with gender identity.

I'm not sure I could do manspreading without feeling self conscious.

I can see why manspreading happens though - if you have balls they're going to drop down between your legs, so it would be more comfortable to sit like that. I sorta kinda feel that just as we expect our physical requirements to be recognised and made room for, if it's the balls that are causing the manspreading we should accept that as part of being male?

That's like saying, if you don't know why exactly you've fallen out of love , with your husband, or if you can't define love in precise terms, you can't get divorced.

I'm not sure nationalities are a good comparison. It is possible to change nationality.

It isn't possible to change sex.

Your sex isn't something you 'identify as' it is something you are, and would be even if you were severely disabled and unable to verbalise at all.

MIdgebabe

Yes, that is what I tend to think. A capacity for identities is tied to our being social animals, its a way to create solidarity and group cohesion in various circumstances. But it has to be fairly flexible to be useful, you have to pick up the identities of the people you are with. I think it makes sense that gender identity is a fairly basic one since we all lived in sexed societies.
I think in the electronic age our identities have in a way exploded, we have so many. Maybe its a reaction to living in societies far larger than we are really suited to?

Are you?

Yes

INstant reaction was : is the larger society also making a need to be special? If you are one in 80 you will eas8ly see your unique value, where you fit?

And as the idntities become too restrictive, like gender, you get more people excluded from those identities?

That's like saying, if you don't know why exactly you've fallen out of love , with your husband, or if you can't define love in precise terms, you can't get divorced

Eh?

Don’t get this I’m afraid. Could you explain?