Shocking Times article "For the past four years I've been stuck as a child"

[MrsSnippyPants]

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www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transgender-children-puberty-blocking-drugs-for-the-past-four-years-i-ve-been-stuck-as-a-child-5s6tkh7z2

This is utterly depressing.

chattylion don’t worry, I am sure it won’t be investigated by medics. They have a nice independent organisation lined up that has loads of experts; goes by the name “Stonewall”. They in turn may also bring in additional expertise from Goldsmith ‘university’ and any legal concerns will be referred to West Yorkshire Police. Of course NSPCC will be there to keep an eye on the kids....

I've always been deeply concerned about the extent to which "puberty blockers" inhibit development of cognitive abilities.

Compare with a comment in a debate this week about anorexia and cognition in the House of Commons:

Dr Lisa Cameron MP
When I worked with people who have eating disorders, we knew from the research that body image was a core part of the issue that people struggled with. It is not just about weight; it is about cognition. It is about how people think about themselves. I worked with young people who were growing thinner by the day and had anorexia nervosa but felt that they were fat. When they looked at themselves in the mirror, they saw themselves as overweight and strove to lose more and more weight. When an eating disorder develops over time, we know that cognition becomes affected. That is why it is very important that people can be referred to local services. I know how difficult that can be.

What if, if you identify as trans and get so sucked in by the idea of it, because you are in a social media bubble or a bubble of inward lookingness that, it affects your ability to process your understanding of the world and your self image like anorexia?

As in if you have anorexia you cant think and make rational decisions because of the condition's grip on you. So why couldn't the same be applicable to being trans.

Exactly, Red. The parallels with anorexia really need exploring. But won't be while clinicians aren't allowed to challenge gender identity.

That article is heartbreaking.

The article really highlights the limits of puberty blockers and the fact that you can't just put a pause on puberty and then change course.

The link with Anorexia and how both linked to ASD I have a sneeky suspicion will lead eventually to an understanding of much of youth Trans issues - fixed mind set is a characteristic of all 3.

And social media and echo chambers exacerbate rigid thinking which means that there is a greater issue for children who are ASD than there used to be and there is more likely that a negative effect is going to be produced.

I find the link with brain wiring and extremism interesting parallels too, and they know this thought processing and rigid thinking can be changed with exposure to having ideas challenged.

It does very much suggest that a part of healthy mental health and healthy society involve talking to a range of different people with different ideas and having ideas and concepts challenged, rather than just reinforced by like minded individuals which can be self destructive or socially destructive.

sorry I'm rather rambly

This has happened to thousands of girls, hasn't it, what they've done to Jacob.

I am very concerned about the fact that there is no sex-specific differentiated information given to girls and boys who start taking blockers. Given that 12 year olds are getting mastectomies in America, I assume these girls will still require this surgery to some extent? So what are the actual "benefits" of blockers for girls? No periods? That could be managed with a contraceptive pill. Their height remains that of a girl.

It feels to me like this is a treatment to stop males masculinising, so facially it's not so obvious, and they've just given them to girls too because nobody gives a shit about female bodies or medical experiences.

I've been thinking the same Sonic and as far as I know there hasn't been any examples of 'sucessful' FTM transitioners who followed an early intervention pathway although there have been several MTF e.g. Jazz Jennings, Jackie Green and Emily Tressa.

Really heartbreaking.

I had a very late puberty naturally and I found that really difficult. I’ve only recently become fully aware how much it affected my social skills and standing with my peers. I just could not understand why all they wanted to talk about was girls/boys etc. I couldn’t understand why I was different, couldn’t compare in sport as I was always the smallest, couldn’t have coped with any kind of romantic relationship for embarrassment. Then when I did experience puberty I was dealing with stuff other girls had done years before. Having breasts appear like magic was welcome - but I could not find a way to deal with the stares and sudden exclamations of surprise that I now had a figure (that I would dearly love to have now!). I recently learnt from reading on this board how much the brain matures during puberty as well, and that joined a lot of dots.

Not to be taken lightly.

Sorry to harp on but another factor why people being given these treatments may feel misled and ‘oversold-to’ could also be the appallingly politicised health information that the NHS is putting out.

Sorry to recycle previous posts on this but please just consider in your mind, what is a vagina and what is a penis. What these organs are and what they can normally do. Think about the complex systems that they are part of, which contribute to why they do what they do.

Then visit the NHS Choices pages on gender dysphoria:
www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/

if you scroll right down to the section about adults having surgery, it says: eg

‘The vagina is usually created and lined with skin from the penis, with tissue from the scrotum (the sack that holds the testes) used to create the labia. The urethra (urine tube) is shortened and repositioned. In some cases, a piece of bowel may be used during a vaginoplasty if hormone therapy has caused the penis and scrotum to shrink a significant amount.’

It continues that:

‘The aim of this type of surgery is to create a functioning vagina with an acceptable appearance and retained sexual sensation.’

It also says a ‘functioning penis’ can be made out of surgically altered women’s bodies.

Note: I am using quotation marks about that word ‘functioning’ to imply that this a view of ‘functionality’ which can be easily contested. The NHS uses no such quote marks to indicate uncertainty or an only-in-part sense of ‘function’.

These shouldn’t be described as ‘functioning’ organs because the results of surgeries aren’t these organs nor do they function like these organs.

As an example, the only ‘functioning’ the described surgically-created ‘vagina’ is capable of that similar to an actual vagina, is capability of being penetrated.

Is that the only necessary ‘function’ of vaginas?

It’s all so reductive about what our sex organs are for and can do. It is also very very misleading to people about what they will get when they have had these complex, painful, surgeries.

They won’t get a ‘fully functioning penis’ or a ‘fully functioning vagina’ yet this is how it is described. To adults who need to give informed consent for these procedures. Why are adults, who will suffer the pain and recovery and will need to live with the results, not being told the truth?

Second point: in the section (same link as above) about children and young people. they mention Gnrh analogues (commonly known as ‘puberty blockers’) but not the dangers and the unknowns of taking these for kids.

They also don’t warn against buying these online for ‘self-medication’ which we know happens.

It’s not a small number of kids being prescribed these via the NHS. in 2017, 800, with 230 kids on puberty blockers under the age of 14. Some reportedly as young as 10.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4743036/800-children-young-10-puberty-blockers.html

Not reaching normal sexual maturation is simply not a choice that a ten year old has the mental capacity to make.

The reversibility and safety of these drugs would appear to be highly overstated, and the risks highly understated.

And if you google it these drugs are easily available for purchase online. Where are the warnings on this page against doing that?

I think NHS health information must be given factually. What they describe isn’t factually correct and might mislead.

I can see they are trying to be sensitive to people’s feelings which is important but should not be done at the expense of confusing or misleading the people who might be reading this NHS health information because they want to know what the medical effects are of that treatment.

And I object to the reductive way that sex organs are presented by this account- the NHS gives a purely political presentation here not a factual presentation. They are supposed to be giving factual, straightforward, patient-friendly information.

A fully functioning vagina is not just a passive hole in the body that is there to be penetrated.

Also what the hell is a vagina with an ‘acceptable appearance’ such as they say these surgeries are needed to create. Acceptable to whom? What is an ‘unacceptable’ vagina?

If anyone can now say that whatever they have in their pants is a vagina anyway, why is surgery even at issue? Why does our NHS give out the kind of information that says that?

What about being sensitive to the feelings of people who radically disagree with this account of human sex organs?

The NHS pages also (deliberately?) conflate gender Dysphoria with intersex or other syndromes with these paragraphs:

Gender development is complex and there are many possible variations that cause a mismatch between a person’s biological sex and their gender identity, making the exact cause of gender dysphoria unclear.
Occasionally, the hormones that trigger the development of biological sex may not work properly on the brain, reproductive organs and genitals, causing differences between them. This may be caused by:
• additional hormones in the mother’s system – possibly as a result of taking medication
• the foetus’ insensitivity to the hormones, known as androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) – when this happens, gender dysphoria may be caused by hormones not working properly in the womb

Presumably there must be a mechanism for challenging the information they out on the pages?

www.transgendertrend.com/2017-letter-gids-clinicians-ignored-guardian/
“We Really Really Tried.” A 2017 Letter from GIDS Clinicians Ignored by The Guardian

In today’s Observer, sister paper to the Guardian, there is an article about the current controversies surrounding Tavistock GIDS, and the concerns expressed by current and former GIDS clinicians and senior members of staff over the past few months.

It has been a great disappointment to many on the Left that the Guardian has been largely silent on this issue. But two former GIDS clinicians sent a letter to the Guardian back in 2017 to alert them to serious concerns about what was going on within GIDS. One of the authors of the submission to the Guardian commented to us “we really really tried.” However, rather than jumping to publish such a devastating testimony – the kind of exclusive most journalists would give their right arm for – the Guardian chose to ignore it.

We are very happy to publish that letter here. We are very grateful to the GIDS clinicians for writing such a powerful and honest testimony and for allowing us to publish it. The rest of this post is in their own words

Off topic but also absolutely bang on topic:

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-7293525/amp/Government-faces-prosecution-human-rights-autistic-youngsters.html?__twitter_impression=true
Government faces prosecution over human rights of autistic youngsters after Mail on Sunday exposes plight of vulnerable patients in NHS units

The equalities watchdog is poised to prosecute the Government and health regulator for permitting the human rights abuse of people with autism and learning disabilities locked up in secure units.

After The Mail on Sunday exposed how people seeking help were being held in solitary confinement for years, violently restrained, pumped full of drugs and fed through hatches, the Equalities and Human Rights Commission asked the Department of Health and Social Care and the Care Quality Commission to explain what it was doing to end such practices

The deadline for a reply was on Friday. If the EHRC is dissatisfied with the response, it may launch legal action, including a possible judicial review into breaches of human rights legislation.

The threat of prosecution comes as MPs and peers finalise a devastating report that is likely to condemn the Care Quality Commission for providing ‘a shield for abusers and false reassurance for families’.

The report by the Joint Committee on Human Rights, due to be published in September, will recommend the use of paid informers to investigate alleged malpractice – underlining the severity of the abuses.

It will also demand that parents are given more power – including greater legal rights over medical reviews and placements – plus ‘real-time reports’ about any restraint or seclusion. And it is understood the report will call for patients to be placed in smaller secure units closer to their homes.

A spokesman for Rightful Lives – a campaign group set up by families of those detained in secretive units – said: ‘We welcome any action taken to protect the rights and wellbeing of autistic people and people with learning disabilities.

‘The continuous stream of scandals illustrates the need for action from all concerned, especially the Government, is long overdue.’

The ‘breathing space’ argument is SUCH bullshit. It’s nothing to do with taking a pause and deciding (what a stupid argument anyway). It’s because the UK does not currently allow 11 year olds to take cross sex hormones and have surgery. The blockers basically ensure more aesthetically pleasing results when the child reaches the age limit. It’s a horror-show. I bet that what Mermaids et al secretly want is for full medical transition at a much younger age. Blockers is their compromise.

I hope some of these sick fucks at Mermaids end up in jail. Poor kid in the article and all the others who are being sold a fat lie and a lifetime of medical issues and poor mental health.

I bet that what Mermaids et al secretly want is for full medical transition at a much younger age. Blockers is their compromise.

Not secretly at all.

twitter.com/green_susie100/status/1059177316901904394

Oh Jeez....

Not secretly at all.

It feels like a bait and switch that has been in progress for some time but is now accelerating.

"A trans man who had a penis crafted by using skin from his forearm developed kidney stone-like growths inside his urethra.

The tiny stones blocked the 22-year-old Portuguese man from going to the toilet properly.

...

The journal said about 80 per cent of patients getting a penis crafted from skin from their forearm suffer complications."

metro.co.uk/2019/07/24/trans-man-22-got-kidney-stones-penis-built-using-skin-forearm-10449975/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

80% complication rate. Who agrees to an operation (excluding life or death necessity) with odds like this?

It's horrifying isn't it Fanny?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3651543-Michael-Biggs-paper-on-the-Tavistock
Michael Biggs on the Tavistock experiments

Thanks for the Michael Biggs article Red.

Needs to be shared widely.

DodoPatrol

I doubt they used those terms. I imagine that’s a child’s memory of bits of a longer explanation.

Why do you doubt this? Mermaids and other trans ideology movements are all about promoting the idea that gender identity IS the sex.

It is the same as the deliberate and repetitive mantra that “transwoman are women”. Why would a boy not be told he could and would be a girl, and a girl told she could and would be a boy if they just took these drugs, had this surgery?

If adults are being told there is no difference between transwomen and women (and it is shocking how many pick up the mantra), that to say otherwise is transphobic, why do you think a female child would not have been told taking testosterone would make her a boy?

I doubt they used those terms. I imagine that’s a child’s memory of bits of a longer explanation.

We don't know exactly what was said to the child, who may have misunderstood. But if it is the case that the child could have misunderstood so badly, then it is almost as bad as actually telling them that they could change sex.

The child should have understood that they could not change sex. If they did not understand this, there is no way that giving them the treatment was ethical. The doctors who prescribed and administered the treatment should have made sure that the child fully understood that the treatment would not make them change sex. Since this child appears to have believed that they could change sex, the doctors in charge of their treatment obviously failed to do this.