Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Shocking Times article "For the past four years I've been stuck as a child"

128 replies

MrsSnippyPants · 26/07/2019 18:33

Sorry, no share token

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transgender-children-puberty-blocking-drugs-for-the-past-four-years-i-ve-been-stuck-as-a-child-5s6tkh7z2

This is utterly depressing.

OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/07/2019 21:47

Will this person now go through a normal puberty, or is it too late?

TeamUnicorn · 26/07/2019 21:57

old thank you for that link. It seems that Mermaids are trying to portray a warm fuzzy feeling to divert away from all the recent criticism.

NonHypotheticalLurkingParent · 26/07/2019 22:05

My heart goes out to Jacob and his family.

Four years ago, the effect of puberty blockers was sold as totally safe and reversible. Four years ago the fact that puberty blockers then cross sex hormones caused sterility wasn’t discussed (I’m not sure the Tavi even knew or thought about that).

There was a clinician on twitter who was saying how they’re now encouraged not to say blockers are fully reversible anymore. Why the change? It’s like they’re worried about them not actually being fully reversible.

Again my thoughts go out to Jacob. Jacob who was prescribed them four years ago when GIDS were saying something totally different to what they’re telling patients now.

OldCrone · 26/07/2019 22:11

The findings have yet to be published. Meanwhile, the clinic has referred thousands of children for hormone therapies.

Critics have accused the clinic of suppressing negative results but the clinic says it was waiting for the last patient in the study to make a decision about moving on to cross-sex hormones.

It says it is finalising the data, which will soon be published in a peer-reviewed journal.

The non-publication of results is odd. This is an experiment being carried out on children, using powerful drugs. It started in 2011, but all they have managed to do so far is present some preliminary stuff at conferences. No interim results. Nothing. And in the meantime they have prescribed the drugs to hundreds more children.

Also, when FOI requests have been made regarding the exact ages of children who have been put on puberty blockers, they say that they don't know because the drugs are actually administered by the children's GPs. I would have thought a complete record of the administration of the drugs would be essential to any study.

tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/documents/1547/FOI_19-20001_Details_of_Study_on_Early_Pubertal_Suppression.pdf

NeurotrashWarrior · 26/07/2019 22:11

That's a bloody good point mumwon

Popchyk · 26/07/2019 22:15

I keep thinking of those non-verbal girls that Kirsty Entwistle (former GIDS clinical psychologist) talked about.

The GIDS explanation for those girls declining to speak in sessions was that they didn't want to speak with a female voice and therefore this was evidence they must be transgender.

How well can these children understand risk and effects of complex medical treatment when they are too traumatised to speak? And how does the clinician know that the child does or does not understand the risks if the child won't speak?

Open Letter to Polly Carmichael

crsacre · 26/07/2019 22:27

ArranUpsideDown: We need different language.

chemical castration
.
GnRHa is not licensed for gender dysphoria, but is licensed for deviant hyperssexuality. Sex offenders in Broadmoor take it to destroy their sex drive.

GCAcademic · 26/07/2019 22:44

There’s currently a gender critical psychiatrist on AMA if anyone is interested in asking them anything:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/AMA/3648668-I-am-a-gender-critical-psychiatrist-AMA

PackingSoapAndWater · 26/07/2019 23:04

Stubbed a tie and broke a bone. Fell over and broke a wrist. Fell over, broke an elbow. Four breaks in four years.

The doctors that oversaw Jacob's care are Frankensteinian. The whole lot of them should be struck off and face criminal charges.

I have never felt such disgust. This is medical experimentation on vulnerable minors. GIDS should formally answer for what they have done.

CharlieParley · 26/07/2019 23:17

Whatever ultimately the aim of this article is - catharsis, indictment, awareness raising or rallying cry - it has taken a lot of courage to write this. I hope Jacob will find a path to happiness, whatever that may look like.

It was upsetting to read this because my youngest two are 12 and 16. Where Jacob is and where Jacob should be - all I need to do is look at my two and the enormous difference between them in development. DC3 is Tanner stage 1 to 2, the stage at which development is arrested with puberty blockers. DC2 is Tanner stage 5.

To think that other children aged 12 are denied their adolescence and all of the experimentation with beliefs and identity that happen in puberty but also the socio-sexual experiences that typically occur in these four years (like becoming aware of your sexuality), and remembering the emotional, mental, intellectual growth that DC2 experienced is horrifying.

As the author of one study on this issue concludes:

the treatment risks hindering the individual's development of a free personality, sexuality and identity, thus disconnecting the young person from the typical experiences of her or his age, with no certainty of the long-term effects on physical health.

and

From a psychological perspective, the main dilemma is to understand whether buying time at such a precocious age truly enables children to explore deep personal meanings, or whether it freezes youngsters in a prolonged childhood, secluding them from certain aspects of reality and isolating them from peer groups.

Judging from Jacob's story, this is exactly what seems to have happened in this case.

Furthermore, I find the justification focusing on consent particularly chilling, for two reasons.

  1. DC3 got an application form for one of those Youth Scotland cards. Because he is 12 already, the form stated he was old enough to give consent to the data collection and privacy policy and did not need parental permission.

Since this wasn't the policy in place with DC 1 and DC2, I phoned my local council to ask what steps they had taken to ascertain that children like mine understood what they were asked to agree to. (None)

And who had decided that 12 was the appropriate age to give informed consent at all (some government move apparently that also includes medical consent). Which brings me to

  1. Because my GP's practice also gave the kids a slip of paper where they had to confirm that they were happy for the doctors to involve their parents in their medical care, my GP had a chat with me about this issue, sharing his grave concerns that this was endangering underage patients.

This was based in part on his own decades-long experience of treating children with type 1 diabetes, all of whom had reached a rebellious stage in adolescence and many of whom had no understanding of the longterm consequences of their medical non-compliance. (All the way to early death in some cases.)

Now diabetes is a much better understood condition than gender dysphoria. The medical issues are much better understood. And especially the longterm consequences of certain behaviours are well-documented and easy to explain to adolescent patients.

Nonetheless, this made no difference to their ability to truly understand the risks and therefore to their ability to truly give informed consent (or in this case withhold consent and reject treatment).

My GP thought this decision by the government that all 12 year-olds are now assumed to be mature enough to give/withhold informed consent to any kind of medical treatment without parental support was utter madness.

And none of that even applies to puberty blockers because no one knows the longterm consequences. So for the Tavistock to stress that they keep explaining the consequences to kids and they are therefore giving consent all the way suggests a callous disregard for their own responsibility as the medical experts here and a staggering ignorance of the facts and timelines of child development.

12 year-olds, for fucks sake, are just at the tail end of make belief and differentiating between what is real and possible and what is not. Your average kid that age is highly prone to being manipulated because of their lack of life experience, knowledge and maturity. That's why we as parents are still needed to accompany and guide them them through this difficult and confusing time.

And the parents can't give informed consent either because there is not enough data to base a decision on.

And as the author of the above study laid out, puberty blockers were only ever meant to be used as part of an extensive framework of combined approaches including psychotherapy throughout (aka exploring the reasons the child may have come to reject their own sex - such as trauma and abuse - and attempting to find a way to reconcile mind and body. Also known today as "conversion therapy" and banned). Other approaches were social interventions and family support.

But we know from previous Times articles - and Jacob's story once again confirms this - that this is severely lacking in the UK.

Puberty blockers cannot give the child time to consider their options, because according to both patients and health care professionals options other than transitioning are no longer fully explored.

XenoBio · 26/07/2019 23:28

One thing that concerns me is that puberty has a huge effect on the parts of th brain that regulate judgment and risk taking. As well as fact that the ability to estimate speed/ distance changes for the better as the brain matures through puberty.

It’s why we don’t let kids drive a car.

What if some of these blocker effects are permanent. Does this mean there will be A whole cohort who can’t judge risk, who maybe will never drive or even cross the bloody road safety?

How are they going to feel,about that when it all comes out?

littlbrowndog · 26/07/2019 23:29

Charley just how good are you at laying out the info.
Just thanks

BickerinBrattle · 26/07/2019 23:34

They aren’t puberty blockers.

They are infantilisation preservers.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 26/07/2019 23:38

They are infantilisation preservers.

Yep.
And we know from at least one troll who posts here that keeping women like infants is, at least in their own mind, an end goal.

jay55 · 26/07/2019 23:48

Surely once the child's bones started breaking the drugs should have immediately been stopped.

This child has been let down over and over and over.

OrchidInTheSun · 26/07/2019 23:50

Yes, thank you Charlie. I am thinking about my own 12 year old and how they are teetering on the cusp of adolescence but still such a child at times.

And about the young person I know with diabetes who died last year because his adolescent bravado made him blind to the risks he was taking.

Children are fickle, easily manipulated and find it very difficult to contradict adults in authority.

It's only tangentially related but I read the evidence submitted to the Maria Miller enquiry by Mermaids again the other day and they make their push for medicalisation abundantly clear: data.parliament.uk/WrittenEvidence/CommitteeEvidence.svc/EvidenceDocument/Women%20and%20Equalities/Transgender%20Equality/written/19540.html

OccasionalKite · 27/07/2019 00:39

I was particularly struck by:
"Jacob has just turned 16 and for the past four years the teenager’s body has been put on pause. He has been on hormone blockers to stop puberty while he decides how far he is willing to go to become a transgender man."

"Far from becoming one of the lads, as he’d hoped, he felt even more alienated from them as their physiques changed and Jacob’s remained the same."

“At school, other people were maturing into adults. The guys I grew up with were growing hair and growing up."

And:

"In hindsight, Jacob finds it surprising how little his background — and the reasons why he didn’t want to be a girl — were discussed before being referred for treatment."

On top of all that, I hate that Jacob is being referred to as "he".

From what I understand, Jacob was born with a female body, and Jacob is the girl that she is.

She has her acknowledged difficulties, that I feel are common to girls her age. I know that I had serious difficulties at that age.

I just wish that Jacob, and all the other Jacobs, could be told that utter confusion from 10ish to 18ish and into 20s, is totally normal - especially were there is a background of sexual assault.

If we could only have a system for welcoming Jacob and all the other Jacobs into the sisterhood of women who know that being a woman can be bloody hard. And telling them that. A system of women who will look out for her safety and protect her.

Instead of the drugging and gaslighting regime that has been perpetrated on this girl.

Sorry if I've got incoherent on this, but the article made me want to weep.

stillathing · 27/07/2019 09:02

(aka exploring the reasons the child may have come to reject their own sex - such as trauma and abuse - and attempting to find a way to reconcile mind and body. Also known today as "conversion therapy" and banned).

So clearly put charley. What they are denying kids who say they are trans is just regular psychotherapy. Something which, with the right therapist, can be extremely effective in increasing all round wellbeing, without medical intervention. You can't do proper therapy without exploring background issues and working on the relationship between mind and body.

It is baffling to me that the main therapy organisations such as BACP and UKCP have signed up to this idea which makes such a crude analogy between homosexuality and transgenderism. An analogy which completely falls apart upon the application of the tiniest bit of thought. I don't see how any psychotherapist can ethically work with a child who says they are trans now.

Floisme · 27/07/2019 09:44

Thanks for the share token. That made me cry, so many shocking moments.

He claimed the clinic did not consider his background, such as the trauma of a sexual assault at primary school, or his parents’ difficult divorce.
Even a few months ago, I'd have been a bit sceptical about that (simply because we're all guilty sometimes of only hearing what we want to hear). But if I remember correctly, the Tavistock whistleblower's letter says something very similar.

NonHypotheticalLurkingParent · 27/07/2019 10:18

Floisme - It is how it is. Gender dysphoria used to be seen as a mental health issue. TRAs took exception to this and pushed for a different classification. Changing the classification also meant, that in America, it was easier to get insurance funding for medication.

However, what this means for gender dysphoric children is that their feelings of being transgender are seen as totally separate to any mental health issues.

My dd presented as transgender at 11, CAMHS wouldn’t treat her as ‘it’s not our remit as gender dysphoria is not a mental health issue’. Only the Tavistock dealt with gender dysphoria. Dd also had complex trauma and OCD presentations. CAMHS wouldn’t address them as the gender dysphoria probably caused them, rather than vice versa. It seems incredulous, but CAMHS are historically underfunded. The clinician who assessed dd was a mental health nurse, who admitted during the assessment they knew nothing about gender dysphoria, but had read the night before that it was totally natural and to do with hormone washes in the womb. We were signed off and told to ask for a referral to the Tavistock.

The decoupling of gender dysphoria is the real issue. That stops what can be offered to children like dd.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 27/07/2019 10:21

The decoupling of gender dysphoria is the real issue. That stops what can be offered to children like dd.

Sadly it's a very calculated deliberate move as it pushes those like your daughter into one path, with very little help.

truthisarevolutionaryact · 27/07/2019 10:32

Four broken bones? Yet none of poor Jacob's dismal medics has questioned this? One of the first responses to me breaking my leg was to send me for a bone density scan to check for osteoporosis. Even the most basic medical care seems to be denied to these children in the interests of trans ideology.

VickyEadie · 27/07/2019 10:50

Four broken bones? Yet none of poor Jacob's dismal medics has questioned this? One of the first responses to me breaking my leg was to send me for a bone density scan to check for osteoporosis. Even the most basic medical care seems to be denied to these children in the interests of trans ideology.

The impact on girls' bodies of lack of oestrogen caused by menstruation delay isn't talked about enough. My niece (an outstanding athlete) hadn't started periods by age 17 and although she was taken to the GP several times, he fobbed off her parents, telling them 'She's fine, let nature take its course."

When she broke bones in her foot for the third time - just running - he sought private, specialist help. Bone scans revealed very low bone density and treatment prescribed. She began menstruating a few months later, but two years on she has not been able to compete yet (she was a national champion and national record holder, I should add).

We're hoping it was caught in time and she might resume normal competition soon and that there have been no long-term effects - but the case of female athlete Bobby Clay demonstrates how much worse it can be if menstruation is delayed too long:

www.athleticsweekly.com/performance/bobby-clay-my-osteoporosis-nightmare-70422/

Bobby still hasn't resumed competition. She was/is one of our finest young women track runners.

TonsilAngle · 27/07/2019 11:01

I'm slightly in the horrors about the realisation that blockers restricting growth will give the desired outcomes for males and the opposite for females.

Although subject of the Times article would probably never have been as big as the boys anyway.

I can't help thinking the use of male pronouns in the article will make it confusing to the average reader.

Eaudear · 27/07/2019 11:08

The thing is, even if a normal puberty resumes once you stop taking them, it still can't really be said that they are 'fully reversible' because your body will have still aged by 4 years or whatever when your puberty actually starts and it's possible that that will have some sort of effect.