Letter to Men

[Passtheknitting]

Someone else posted something from him a few weeks ago and I posted one a while ago.

This looks an interesting read too.

An open letter to men ....

lonelyts.blog/2019/07/20/dear-men/

But why is it that men should have to take on 50% of childcare and household tasks? Why not the 2 parents need to divide up all tasks, including employment, equally? I don't think it's right that if one parent stays at home and the other woth that the woth parent also needs to take on 50% of childcare and housework.

As regards porn, well, you said it yourself "on Mumsnet".

Raising the next generation - yes, dads have a responsibility in how their sons and daughters are raised. And mums have a responsibility too. Men have had mums as parents as well as dads. A recent thread regarding a DH who was being labelled a mummy's boy because he was controlled by his mum. Every post slated the man for not having the guts to stand up to his mum etc etc. How did he come Tobe so afraid of his mum and going against her wishes? Presumably because of how she raised him. So how come the anger wasn't levelled at the mother rather than the son?

I ask again, apply that list to an area where you have privilege - maybe because of your race or lack of disability - do you uphold the spirit of that list in your everyday life?

Would you always challenge racist or disabalist language, jokes, violence every time you see it?

Are you constantly observant for ways that people are discriminated against in an area where you have privilege? Do you challenge that every time? Do you avoid TV programmes, comics, theatre etc where any sort of offensive remarks or behaviours are used for entertainment?

Basically, do you walk the walk?

“Basically, do you walk the walk?”

Well if the number of times I get called a professionally offended lefty snowflake is anything to go by........

Well if the number of times I get called a professionally offended lefty snowflake is anything to go by........

Not really answering the question though is it?

That’s because it’s not really a question I can answer. I do my best. Whether you think that is enough is up to you. I am aware of falling short. I know many men who don’t even try. Are not even aware of the issues. And will resist the suggestion that they should take responsibility.

That’s because it’s not really a question I can answer. I do my best. Whether you think that is enough is up to you. I am aware of falling short. I know many men who don’t even try. Are not even aware of the issues. And will resist the suggestion that they should take responsibility.

So are you aware of all issues then? Maybe there are areas where you fall down because you aren't aware of the issues.

I don't think any of us should asking for more from others than we are giving ourselves. When I know that I always stand up and fight for what is right, always call out discrimination or mistreatment then I will feel that I have the right to judge others for not doing it and demand that they do better but until then I'll concentrate on putting my own house in order first.

“So are you aware of all issues then? Maybe there are areas where you fall down because you aren't aware of the issues.“

Of course there are. But if somebody tells me what the issues are, I listen and think about what I can do about it. I don’t go into denial, start casting about for ways to blame other people, launch into a sustained campaign of whataboutery and say it’s not my problem. l

Why are you addressing me as though I'm male?

Because you defended conditional inaction on a thread where.we are discussing how male inaction about other men's oppression of women perpetuates men's oppression of women. I assumed from your stance that you were a man defending your own inaction. I gather from your response that I assumed incorrectly, and I apologise for that.

My point about men's privilege continues to apply to men.

I don’t go into denial, start casting about for ways to blame other people, launch into a sustained campaign of whataboutery and say it’s not my problem.

This.

What you can also do in a confrontation, and is often more helpful and safer all round than actively challenging the perp, is to visibly support the victim. When I overheard someone using a racist slur against an asian couple walking behind me in Germany (because Germany is an absolute shithole for women and brown people alike), I turned around, said "hi, I'm wacademia, can I join you for a bit?", and walked beside them for a while. The message to the racists is "not all white people agree with you" and "you will have to hurt me to hurt these people", without even making eye contact with the racists.

I reckon I did the right thing because the lass had this look of shock and fesr on her face as I turned, and I don't think I caused it.

"Men: don't abuse women." Seems such a difficult concept to grasp.

@BertrandRussell

" If I was One of a class that committed over 90% of violent crime, for example, I would be thinking what I as an individual and a parent could do about it......"

Thank you (and all of mumsnet) for challenging men to think and act. Some of us are listening and trying.

I believe in figuring out what you think is right, and just get on with doing it. I think looking for validation from feminists is a fools errand. It’s simply too diverse a movement. There isn’t really a feminist high command that dispenses the right doctrine it is a perspective that views things from a woman’s perspective. You are only going to be able to approach feminism from a man’s perspective, and being cognisant of that is key.

If you walk the earth taking women as seriously as you do men, you probably aren’t at the top of the list of men who cause women problems. Rather than letting your nose get out of joint at the existence of the list, maybe take heart that there are feminists out there who have faith in men and that they can change.

“Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.” -Marcus Aurelius

The Bechdel test isn't a serious rule about what films are ok to watch. People know that, right?

Yeah, it's a nice idea, but it wasn't created as a rule, hence it's very flawed.
It shouldn't be taken as a hard and fast rule.
A noted example is Gravity, with Sandra Bullock as the main character and "hero" and scientist - educated, intelligent, physically capable, yet as there is only her and (for a short while) George Clooney in, it fails the Bechdel test.

“The Bechdel test isn't a serious rule about what films are ok to watch. People know that, right?“

Of course it’s not. But it would be good if men watched some films that passed it sometimes.

"The Bechdel test isn't a serious rule about what films are ok to watch. People know that, right?"

No shit.

I'm pretty sure men do watch films that pass it, since more films are passing it these days.
Most of the big blockbuster films such as Avengers, etc. are passing.

Anecdote:

I was sitting in a garden with a Nice group of people a few weeks ago.

Three men were there without their families (that's relevant).

We're putting on a production that will include a fourteen year old girl, who (in the original production) wears a bikini.

ALL THREE MEN (in their late fourties) started saying things like 'phwoar, she definitely has to wear the bikini'.

ALL THREE MEN have teenage children of their own.

ALL THREE MEN are 'nice', normal family men, who are generally kind.

Small minority my fat arse.

(And yes, I did call them out).

Good. That’s one box ticked then. How about the others.....?

If that reply was to me BertrandRussell, I'm a woman.

i’m sorry, @MilesJuppisnybitch- it wasn’t! It was about the Bedchel test thing. I thought your anecdote was so depressing- and so common. And the sort of thing that makes me cross when people say “but men do all these things already- how dare you suggest they don’t” Well, obviously they don’t- or that sort of thing wouldn’t happen any more!

Incidentally, my dd has Miles Jupp’s number in her phone......

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How... did she get that? Not that I'm interested.

I think the Bechdel test is worthy, but flawed. Like many of us :D

Yes, the conversation was depressing. I've heard so many exchanges like that over the years, but only started calling them out recently. I've been radicalised by a combination of cancer, menopause, motherhood and MN. I now give no fucks.

One of the interesting things about the Bechdel test is explaining it to someone.

The very concept sometimes brings them up short. What do you mean? Of course films have two women talking about something other than men. Most films, surely? Surely...

“One of the interesting things about the Bechdel test is explaining it to someone”

Yep. It ties in with the “Why do we need feminism any more-surely it’s all been done...” mindset.

having been offline most of the weekend, am returning to this. I think Decomposing is being a bit obtuse:

And realistically, how many men, in ordinary jobs, sit on any panels? How many have any influence whatsoever over their work place?

This is true, of course, but it can be taken further. Many many men in the workplace are involved, for example, in hiring decisions. Do they look around the room making the decision and think, "hang on, why are we all (white) men in here? Shouldn't there be a woman or POC?" Do they look at the candidates and genuinely consider if the woman is the best candidate when they all naturally "bonded" more with the man? Many men sit on other committees, attend conferences and seminars or even training. Do any of them consider the proportion of men in these sessions? If they're the person responsible for sending people to these sessions, do they consciously aim to send women as often as they send men?

Ditto, your point about why should men do 50% of household tasks and childcare if the woman is a SAHP? But that's not what's being discussed here. If you take all the tasks, including earning money, into account, then I think we can all agree men should take 50% of the burden. But we all know this seldom happens. That if he takes on the bulk of the financial burden, somehow there's little incentive for him to take on any of the rest. Does this really seem fair to you?

Yeah, this ‘open letter to..’ thing, a blend of patronizing sanctimony and finger-wagging admonition that never sinks in with the people it’s nominally intended for because they don’t think it applies to them and their mates, if they catcall or grab a passing arse it’s just banter and an actual compliment innit?

Appreciate the effort but it’s almost like #Me Too ie millions of women coming out and all shouting the same fucking points covered here never fucking happened. This shit isn’t something that a halo-polishing, smug essay can slap a list of rules on and expect them to be followed.

Do they look around the room making the decision and think, "hang on, why are we all (white) men in here? Shouldn't there be a woman or POC?"

DH (without my prompting) told me he wanted to hire more women into his (small) company. There were 2 of them, all men, and he hired a woman. Unfortunately she left and there were no female candidates in the next round of recruitment where they hired 2, so it became 5 men.
He told me he was frustrated as now they were a company of all men which might look daunting to female candidates.
This was a couple of year's ago, though, they now have 4 men and 4 women, due to DHs efforts primarily.