Letter to Men

[Passtheknitting]

Someone else posted something from him a few weeks ago and I posted one a while ago.

This looks an interesting read too.

An open letter to men ....

lonelyts.blog/2019/07/20/dear-men/

When you dismiss women's lived experience and the official statistics, you add insult to injury.

But you are dismissing the experiences that don't fit your expectations. You can hardly complain if others do the same.

The data does suggest that the men who commit sexual assaults do so multiple times and that is reflected in an imbalance in number of assaulters vs number of assaults.

Not everyone thinks of sexual trash talk as a thing that's particular to men, either. It hasn't been my experience at all. Why isn't that "lived experience"?

Passtheknitting Just goes to show there is a tide in the affairs of men posts ( A nod to Shakespeare). Up to 27 now - not including this one - but it had initially slipped unremarked to page 2 - where posts go to die. Hope for us all.

You can start by accepting it's not a small minority.

Have you got any links? I'm only going by what the world's largest rape charity say (they have over 1000 rape crisis centres).

I can well believe it's under reported but on the other hand victims are likely to be drawn to feminism (which only 7% of UK women identify with) so on this board it's not surprising to see a higher incidence.

I'm only going by what the world's largest rape charity say (they have over 1000 rape crisis centres).

Didn't mean this snarkily either. Just meant I've got no reason to disbelieve what they say as an authority on the matter. I'm keen to read all the data.

There are lots of things that men can do as individuals in their daily lives that would make a huge difference to the balance between men and women in society. Lots. We will net have equality until
Men accept that they have work to do too.

If half of the mumsnet FWR bored have survives rape, and feminists are generally only 7% of the female population, then maybe it's 3.5% of women. That's what I mean.

Argh typos

We will not have equality until men accept that they have work to do too.

This may be true but part of the problem is that many posters on here are extremely hostile when men try and educate themselves or discuss the issues. Most guys only care about their immediate family and friends and getting through daily life, and they will just say 'fuck it, not my problem' if they're greeted with contempt.

This isn't necessarily right but it is true IMO.

“This may be true but part of the problem is that many posters on here are extremely hostile when men try and educate themselves or discuss the issues. ”

Are they? I have only seen hostility when men try to educate women on the issues......

"...they will just say 'fuck it, not my problem' if they're greeted with contempt."

That is exactly it. They should grow some balls. How do they think a woman is treated when she objects to sexism? Eh? Man the fuck up.

Oh sorry. I thought that was about when men try to stand up to sexism. You mean they can't even handle a bit of being laughed at for being ignorant? Surely not!

"I can't learn about treating women as humans because they will laugh at me." It's like Google and reading as never been invented.

Yep. I’ve been a feminist for 45 years. Got the bruises to prove it. It still one of the things that gets you most derision even on
Mumsnet, believe it or not. And men do tend to expect a bit of adulation when they ask about feminism.......

Not your first time at this rodeo with the RAINN reference and the 7% stat, is it, rudolph?

I find RAINN slightly curious. I have no idea of the work they do, I’m not American, but the website curiously seems entirely robbed of any gendered language around sexual violence. It seems quite as if people rape other people in that world, with no exploration of which groups either raping or being raped might be more likely to be composed of which sex. To me, that’s kind of missing most of the story of sexual violence and its link to toxic masculinity. Any idea what the thinking is behind that approach?

It was founded by a man I believe - and before anyone kicks off, I only note that because to me that means that it’s unlikely to have a feminist approach to its work, and as far as my cursory look at their information can tell me, it indeed doesn’t.

Here’s some stuff men can do-
“1. Take full responsibility for their fare share of domestic work and childcare.

1. Challenge sexist/ misogynist/violent talk and behaviour every time they see it and wherever they see it
2. Stop using prostitutes.
3. Challenge sexist work practices-for example making sure that any panel they are on is 50% women- if necessary refusing to go on it if it isn't.
4. Stop watching porn.
5. Stop buying and playing sexist video games, and films that don't pass the Bedschel test.

8.Think about how they parent their boys, and remember that they are the next generation of men.

1. Treat the women in their life seriously. If their children’s mother is a SAHP acknowledge the value of their contribution to the family, and that it is equal in value to the money earning role.

I can well believe it's under reported but on the other hand victims are likely to be drawn to feminism (which only 7% of UK women identify with) so on this board it's not surprising to see a higher incidence

I missed this.

Why is it that you think that a woman who has been raped would be drawn to feminism?

I know what I think you mean, but would rather have your clarification.

I always like that list, bertrand.

Seems so simple and yet for so many men, such an impossibly high bar.

I like it too Sophocles. I find it depressing but amusing that men almost always focus on the one about women on panels and assure me earnestly that they don’t have any influence over such things so they are in the clear......

I work in a pretty male dominated environment. A colleague described hearing a client decide to appoint an older male adviser rather than a younger (but still early 40s, so not inexperienced) female adviser. Client thought the man “had more gravitas”.

Did my colleague (a man, and from what I can tell a decent sort) challenge the client? Did he hell - that would be awkward. And so another perfectly capable woman loses out, and that’s just life to my male colleague, who is entirely unaffected by this sexism.

Multiply that across society and into conversations about women more generally (what man, apart from Pete, wants to challenge sexist language about women when with the lads?) and you can see why actually, this is a problem that men need to take responsibility for.

Not all sexual assault is rape. As a teen/early 20s, sexual groping by random men in nightclubs was a standard part of a night out. It shouldn’t be.

Men beeping their car horn as you walk along when you’re only 13/14 isn’t a lot of fun. Middle aged men commenting “nice tits love” at a music festival when you’re 15 rather spoils the event. Security guards at a different music festival threatening to rape you (16) and your 17 year old sister - they weren’t entirely serious, but what kind of man even thinks to say that to two teenage girls?

And these are just a few examples, I could fill a book. I don’t know the solution, but I know that women cannot change the behaviour of these men - and men have a duty to at least try.

"Nearly one-third of college men admit they might rape a woman if they could get away with it" www.newsweek.com/campus-rapists-and-semantics-297463

Original study www.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/vio.2014.0022

I can well believe it's under reported but on the other hand victims are likely to be drawn to feminism (which only 7% of UK women identify with) so on this board it's not surprising to see a higher incidence

I know of several women who have been the victims of male violence who aren't feminists.

Dont make assumptions.

Some of them genuinely believe it was their fault for being "too beautiful" and that women should take (at least) some responsibility for the sexual assaults they experience based upon the rape myths of clothing, alcohol consumption and location.

The believe that men are biologically unable to control themselves.

They also believe that feminists are to blame as men seek to redress the valance and restore the natural order of things.

And these are intelligent and well educated women.

Why is it that you think that a woman who has been raped would be drawn to feminism?

I guess it just feels logical that some would want to embrace a movement that wants to tackle VAWG having experience it first hand and now being in the situation where the shutters have been removed and they can no longer live in blissful ignorance (although I'd guess some might go the the opposite way and find it too traumatising to confront).

Bertrand

I agree with most of that list but I'm not yet sold on quotas. So long as there is no barrier to entry, I don't see an issue with each sex gravitating towards different areas dependent on what they prefer.

I'd rather that sex wasn't even a factor and the best candidate was selected.

I didn't believe in quotas when I was younger - fairness, preference blah blah blah - but now I think it's a good idea. There are studies that say that people become less bias and stop thinking that women don't belong when there are about 30%.

Besides, all this "oh no we don't do positive discrimination" thing is just positive discrimination in favour of white men.