Letter to Men

[Passtheknitting]

Someone else posted something from him a few weeks ago and I posted one a while ago.

This looks an interesting read too.

An open letter to men ....

lonelyts.blog/2019/07/20/dear-men/

Bertrand, I'm not a man, But I think I can answer for DH

Here’s some stuff men can do-
“1. Take full responsibility for their fare share of domestic work and childcare.
Done. He's still shit at cooking, but does loads (and is a SAHD - more on that later)

1. Challenge sexist/ misogynist/violent talk and behaviour every time they see it and wherever they see it

when he sees it he does. He's still got some work to really understand some issues (eg intellectually he gets the quota arguments I was making above, but he struggles instinctively with it. I'd give him a 6/10. Also see above example of fall out with old male friends as a result of this]

1. Stop using prostitutes.

Never happened.

1. Challenge sexist work practices-for example making sure that any panel they are on is 50% women- if necessary refusing to go on it if it isn't.
2. Stop watching porn.

I am 99% sure that's done.

1. Stop buying and playing sexist video games, and films that don't pass the Bedschel test.

Video games is irrelevant. Movies he doesn't stop watching them (but I admit, I don't either) but he does notice and will increasingly find such movies less appealing (as do I).

8.Think about how they parent their boys, and remember that they are the next generation of men.
He's all over this.

1. Treat the women in their life seriously. If their children’s mother is a SAHP acknowledge the value of their contribution to the family, and that it is equal in value to the money earning role.

As a SAHD he truly believes this. More importantly, he gets that it's hard for working women in particular and as we speak is babysitting a friend's children when her childcare arrangements fell apart, even though it's hugely inconvenient for him and required him to change his plans for the day with our DC.

Ooh, I missed number 4 re panels.

He doesn't have any power on this. But is regularly outraged at lack of women being seen on tv and other places. And is more likely than me to sit spluttering and yelling at the tv when a woman is asked the kind of question no man would ever be asked about.

I have never met a man who is prepared to consider whether he and an individual has any collective responsibility for the behaviour if men as a class. If I was One of a class that committed over 90% of violent crime, for example, I would be thinking what I as an individual and a parent could do about ir......

What exactly can individuals do, and how much difference can that one individual make? I've seen individual men intervene in potentially violent situations - I don't think every man can, or should, do it and other than possibly stopping that 1 incident what more does it do? I doubt the perpetrators have a sudden epiphany and decide to mend their ways from that day on. I dare say they just move on to the next victim.

We all should do our best to make society better but I really don't see how an individual can be expected to take on responsibility for their entire class.

I think women who have come into contact with a lot of men, through their work or whatever, are surprised at how few male exceptions there are.
For example my friend worked as a stockbroker in Tokyo and part of her job was taking clients out on Saturday night. She said every single man without a single exception, went home with a prostitute at the end of the night, and the men were married. (Can I just add her job wasn't to facilitate this, it was just something she observed)

When I had my feminist blog, not a single man, in all the 5 years I had it, offered me any type of support or encouragement. And there were tens of thousands. Lots of rape and death threats came my way. The way it worked was when someone commented for the first time you had to approve it, then after that they could comment without approval. I had about 10 regular commenters and when I saw a new one in my inbox my heart would sink as I knew it'd be some nastiness. I used to put them in the trash straight away without publishing them. I bet that pissed them off.

“We all should do our best to make society better but I really don't see how an individual can be expected to take on responsibility for their entire class”

They can’t. But they can make sure that their own behaviour does not collude with and perpetuate the behaviour of the class to which they belong.

I also want to say something. What I found when writing my blog was the anger and hatred towards my writing was, specifically, because I was a woman. Had I been a man writing exactly the same things, I wouldn't have come across this sort of collective will to annihilate me. And no, not a single woman wished me dead and raped. Women can be as annoying as fuck but they don't make threats like that because they don't like what you're saying.

So it was twofold. The aggression was coming from one particular class of people, and it was aimed towards me precisely because I was in the subordinate class. It really couldn't have been made clearer to me, how it all works

Agree Bertrand. And I'd take that to a more specific conclusion - it's not enough that men don't rape or sexually harass/attack women. They need to start understanding that it's much more insidious and that they've been benefiting for years and years and need to start stepping up to solve the problem.

They can’t. But they can make sure that their own behaviour does not collude with and perpetuate the behaviour of the class to which they belong.

Agree. But several points in your list aren't about not colluding, they are about confronting other individuals or systems.

I think women who have come into contact with a lot of men, through their work or whatever, are surprised at how few male exceptions there are.

I worked in a male dominated environment for many years. About 16% were women and they were highly concentrated into a few areas, not mine. Often I was the only woman in my group, or I was in charge of a group that consisted entirely of men. Previous to that I studied in a different, but still male dominated, field.

I don't really agree with your premise that there are "few male exceptions" so I certainly don't find myself surprised by it. There are a great variety of different sorts of men, and for that matter attitudes among the woman varied about as much.

You might find that people commenting on a feminism blog might not be very reflective of people in general, most of whom never read feminism blogs.

The Bechdel test isn't a serious rule about what films are ok to watch. People know that, right?

They can’t. But they can make sure that their own behaviour does not collude with and perpetuate the behaviour of the class to which they belong

Of course there are many individual men who already attempt to do this, and aim to be as decent a human being as they can. None of us is perfect. Even women.

The idea of a general 'letter to men' is as pointless as writing a general 'letter to women'. We are all individuals - and while we share some common traits ( our male/female biology) and experiences, there is as much difference between some individual women as there is between some individual women and some individual men.

It's very tempting to see people as a bloc. I think on the one hand it gives people a thing to blame without having to pin it on individuals which often doesn't make sense. And claiming to speak on behalf of a whole group can also seem to give you a lot of power. But it becomes a temptation to pretend that the group is far more homogeneous than is the reality and then people's voices are dismissed.

“But several points in your list aren't about not colluding, they are about confronting other individuals or systems.“
Not confronting is colluding.

If I was one of a class that committed over 90% of violent crime, for example, I would be thinking what I as an individual and a parent could do about it......

As discussed on here the other day, you're one of a class which is responsible for 70% of cases where a parent murders their children. As an individual and parent, what are you doing about that?

“As an individual and parent, what are you doing about that?”

Are you suggesting that the men who murder their domestic partner are suffering from something equivalent to post partum depression or psychosis?

Well it could well be a factor (men's mental health must be ghastly considering the suicide rate) but I was more pointing out that the statement should work both ways. Women/mothers should accordingly be committed to solving this problem which their class faces but I don't see it discussed much.

The [non-feminist rape victims] believe that men are biologically unable to control themselves

If I was a man, I'd find that deeply offensive because I'm not an animal and have free will, and yet when men say "if a lass goes out in a tight dress and gets falling-over drunk, what does she thinks going to happen?" they are promoting this myth that men are incapable of self-control.

Anti-feminism is dehumanising to men and yet men buy into it, because rhey'd rather fabricate a licence to get their dicks wet in a passed-out woman's vagina than hold themselves and each other to basic human drcency.

“Women/mothers should accordingly be committed to solving this problem which their class faces but I don't see it discussed much.”

That is a rather strange thing to say on a website where every day thousands of women support and help each other through pregnancy, birth and child care, where
women who are struggling find encouragement and emotional and practical help. In a country where every village has a mother and baby group usually set up and run by volunteers. Women volunteers.

Not confronting is colluding.

Really? So not confronting a gang of men is colluding? Not stepping into a possibly volatile situation is colluding?

I would never expect someone to put themselves in harm's way and you cannot accuse anyone who doesn't of collusion, that's ridiculous.

If that's your argument then any woman who sees an altercation or someone verbally abusing another person in the street is also colluding if they don't intervene.

And realistically, how many men, in ordinary jobs, sit on any panels? How many have any influence whatsoever over their work place?

One of the biggest factors in addressing this surely has to be how children are brought up, and both parents have a role to play there.

OK. I will add a proviso that you must at all times avoid getting your head kicked in. But in a group of friends or colleagues? Being silent in the presence of sexist talk is colluding.

And I know that most men are not involved in the setting up panels. That’s why I said something like,”if you are”. But they might well be involved in committees for clubs and sports associations. What about them?

Not confronting is colluding.

Really? So not confronting a gang of men is colluding? Not stepping into a possibly volatile situation is colluding?

And all the times when you could have confronted without being endangered, but didn't? The times you could have called out your mates and colleagues, but didn't? The behaviour you stay silent about is the behaviour you accept.

Also, women don't get to choose to stay safe by not confronting when faced with a gang of hostile men or being targeted by a male who may, as you put it, turn "volatile". The fact that you can choose to walk away whilst she is gang-raped or harassed is SO MUCH PRIVILEGE and you don't even see all, all you can do is complain because we've asked you to help make the world safer for us.

you don't even see all

"you don't even see it at all"

Wish this place had an edit button, even if it was just for five minutes after posting to sort typos.

wacademia

Why are you addressing me as though I'm male?

BertrandRussell

Yes, in a group of friends of course you should challenge - as I would expect everyone to do if their friends were making sexist, misogynistic, racist, homophobic or disabalist comments. Colleagues? I'm not so sure. Ideally, yes you should challenge but it's not always as easy as that.

But your list didn't have these provisos did it? It said that men should challenge whenever they witnessed it which makes it sound like when out on the street etc as well as in private.

As regards sports clubs etc - I still don't think that applies to many men.

Basically your list boils down to be a decent human being as regards all of your actions - as we all should strive to be.

Do you always live by similar virtues as the ones that you've listed as pertaining to privilege that you enjoy?

For clarity this was the point

2. Challenge sexist/ misogynist/violent talk and behaviour every time they see it and wherever they see it

No mention of only when it's friends or colleagues making these comments

“Basically your list boils down to be a decent human being as regards all of your actions - as we all should strive to be”

I don’t think it does- I think it applies to men specifically. Very few men take on 50% of household tasks and child care. If Mumsnet is to be believed, most men watch porn. Far more men than women play violent, sexist video games. Far more men than women go in for sexist misogynist jokes and chat. Very few men take seriously their role in raising the next generation of men, or acknowledge the role their children’s mother takes.

If it was just a list of “ways to be a decent person like we all should, then the list would be unnecessary because it would all be happening.