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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jo Swinson - Define woman please.

122 replies

Sicario · 22/07/2019 17:51

So Jo Swinson has been elected new Lib Dem leader.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49076118

This is a woman who is happy to play to the crowd and spout shit about TWAW.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3642634-ffs-libdems-totally-lost-cause?pg=2

Here we go again...

Hey Jo - how can you protect and uphold women's hard-won sex-base rights if you think that men are women?

Jeez. I really thought we had covered this shit back in the 70s...

OP posts:
Datun · 23/07/2019 16:18

tool *

Needmoresleep · 23/07/2019 16:20

Nancy, I have met ordinary educated liberal women in the US who are astonished that GC views can be voiced in the UK. They too think a lot of the gender stuff is bollocks, especially when it impacts on the rights of vulnerable women and girls. But feel unable to say anything for fear of their jobs.

Trump, detestable as he is, is seem as almost preferable to Clinton type politiciams with their rich and influential donors.

JackyHolyoake · 23/07/2019 16:21

But that's probably a thread derail.

Correct .. it is a derail.

UK politics is nothing like US politics in terms of its polarisation. UK has more than two parties for a start.

What is called 'right' and 'left' in USA is very different from the political spectrum in UK.

Beyond that, religious groups tend to have very little influence over UK politics, unlike in the USA.

JackyHolyoake · 23/07/2019 16:25

It certainly wasn't to award female scholarships to men, let men compete against women in sport, put rapists in female prisons, and generally hand men a tool with which to beat women to their heart's content.

Exactly so. In fact our UK Equality Act 2010 specifically protects against such behaviour via all the Exceptions it provides.

The problem is that far too few people are aware of all those Exceptions and they are not used. They are there, though and we must campaign to make their application mandatory.

ChardonnaysPrettySister · 23/07/2019 16:29

I didn't know she votes for fracking. Bad.

SlocombePooter · 23/07/2019 16:35

Well the LibDems are eager to please and easily bought. Student tuition fees, anyone?

JackyHolyoake · 23/07/2019 16:41

Well the LibDems are eager to please

This is it in a nutshell ... bland ... nothing original about any of their policies ... waiting to see what Tories or Labour say about any issue and then cynically position themselves to the so-called 'left' of Tories and / or so-called 'right' of Labour.

For LibDems read Chameleons' Party.

ThePurported · 23/07/2019 16:41

This will enlighten you. (If you can stomach it).

Thanks Datun, I'd missed that. JFC.

RedToothBrush · 23/07/2019 16:54

This thread makes me sad.

Yes it makes me sad too

At a time when we should be celebrating a woman's success in becoming a political leader, instead we snipe from the sidelines.

But what is the amazing thing about a woman's success if a man can be a woman if they say so?

Jo being unable to define women, means that her success is just well, meaningless because none of us know why its special she is now leader and why its a significant landmark.

This is the point.

It's not sniping. It's saying that if we lose the ability to define woman then women who are disadvantaged because of biological and gender stereotypes are not going to be able to follow in her footsteps, because she's effectively pulled up the ladder saying 'well I did it', forgetting all the challenges she faced and allowing men to say they are women thus creating a false 'gender balance' of people who say they represent women but because they have no idea or no respect for the problems women face because of their sex and gender stereotypes.

At the end of the day why should we celebrate the success of a woman if she is happy and willing to front up a mens sexual rights and power movement at the expense of women?

How does that help any of us who don't share her privilege?

BickerinBrattle · 23/07/2019 16:57

Nancy a couple of the largest founders of transactivism in the US are right-wing Republicans. Jennifer Pritzker is probably the most well-known, but there is also Martine Rothblatt, named as the highest paid female CEO after transitioning.

Then there is Jon Stryker’s Arcus Foundation: he is known as a liberal philanthropist but his fortune comes from the medical technology industry and he is involved in transhumanism, of which sex transitioning is only a part. Transhumanism is an array of research projects pushed by largely libertarian tech moguls interested in the way technology could allow people to transcend human limits. For instance, Peter Thiel was involved in transfusing the blood of younger people into the (wealthy) middle-aged in attempts to increase longevity, while the founders of Google have talked about ending mortality itself. Elon Musk wants to study implanting AI into human brains.

It’s is a very big stretch to imagine that any of this coincides with the goals of leftism or even liberalism.

The proposed Equality Act in the US, while doing what ENDA was meant to do in 2009 — outlawing discrimination against sexual orientation — ALSO redefines “sex” in Titles VII and IX of the Civil Rights Act to mean “gender identity,” in one stroke eliminating sex-based rights for women.

Right now, under the Hopkins v. Price Waterhouse Supreme Court decision, it is illegal to discriminate in employment against someone’s gender expression. So TW actually have more federal job protection right now than gays and lesbians do.

Meanwhile, in upholding the rights of transboys to change in female locker rooms, one of the appellate courts has ruled that the Constitution does not provide girls the “right to visual privacy.” Provided no one touches them, as they do have rights against that, girls can me forced by schools to undress in front of boys who identify as girls — and remember that schools cannot ask, under medical privacy law, for any proof is such identifying. The ONLY proof is the boy’s word.

Mary Louise Singleton, a midwife activist, has already raised alarm at the implications of chipping away at the rights to bodily privacy for women in the US, because that unwritten right is THE legal foundation upon which women’s rights to both birth control and abortion rest.

This is NOT a feminist project. In fact, it’s an anti-feminist project. The fact that some Republicans are against legislating that transwomen are women (and not all — there are many conservatives who support transitioning for the exact same reason Iran does, as a means of “curing” homosexuality) does NOT mean that feminists who are against such legislation share the same beliefs. Our reasons for opposition are diametrically opposed.

Conservatives want to enforce gender constraints; radical feminists want to abolish them. Genderism serves to reify gender: it was the Obama administration whose regulations stated that agencies can recognize that a transwoman is a woman if the transwoman engaged in “female behavior and mannerisms” and wore “female attire.” This is the problem: to define gender identity in law, the law must codify just what those female behaviors and mannerisms are — these become the defining answer to: what is a woman?

BickerinBrattle · 23/07/2019 16:59

Transboys above should read transgirls.

SlipperyLizard · 23/07/2019 17:01

I live in a Lib/Con marginal. I have previously voted LD “to keep the Tories out” - that worked well!

Voted Labour last time (that was before I even woke up to this nonsense). Will spoil my ballot with an “Adult Human Female” sticker next time, unless a miracle happens and one party comes to its senses.

Unfortunately Jo Swinson is one of those women (like M Thatcher and T May) whose achievements I simply cannot celebrate because of the harm that they are willing to do to women.

birdsdestiny · 23/07/2019 17:07

The purported, this is my concern about the lib dems, the members seem to have not the slightest clue about what is going on in their party, and refuse to engage with suggestions that the liberal ideology is a disaster for women. I know it's hard being seen as a representative of the lib dems in a thread, but why do no lib dems on here ever answer about the prostitution and porn issues.

JackyHolyoake · 23/07/2019 17:09

I will be spoiling my ballot paper next time with a sticker that says "Transwomen are Men"

In 2018 I used : No to Sex Self-ID.

Earlier this year I used a sticker which said "Women don't have penises"

RedToothBrush · 23/07/2019 17:26

this is my concern about the lib dems, the members seem to have not the slightest clue about what is going on in their party, and refuse to engage with suggestions that the liberal ideology is a disaster for women

Every I've mentioned it to, has literally gone 'but Brexit is more important.'

Its the perfect excuse to turn a blind eye and not care.

Ironically extreme trans rights activism and the threats posed by trump/brexit are merely the same movement presenting in a slightly different way. Both put feelings and emotions first and both tolerate and reward blatant lying. This all is to the disadvantage of women in particular.

donquixotedelamancha · 23/07/2019 17:44

At a time when we should be celebrating a woman's success in becoming a political leader, instead we snipe from the sidelines.

Can't believe someone just assumed Jo's gender. They have a neutral name and sometimes wear trousers. How do you know how they identifies? This is literal violence.

Unless you are using woman to mean an adult human female, in which case carry on.

2Rebecca · 23/07/2019 17:50

I think Boris will do more to counter the trans lobby than Jo. He isn't a feminist but he does know what a woman is

EverardDigby · 23/07/2019 18:05

All the threads I've seen in AIBU or chat that are about trans issues have a majority of posters expressing comments similar to FWR. The majority of "normal" people also think this whole agenda is batshit.

RedToothBrush · 23/07/2019 18:22

I think Boris will do more to counter the trans lobby than Jo. He isn't a feminist but he does know what a woman is

Boris wants to be down with the kids (dude!?) and court liberals.

So don't bet on him knowing what a woman is.

WrathofStrawberryWhittleKlop · 23/07/2019 18:23

AgnesBadenPowell
That picture of Jo Swinson with Aimee Challenor.
So recent too.
I'm very disappointed.

I will never vote for anyone who thinks TWAW

JackyHolyoake · 23/07/2019 18:29

I think the pertinent question for Ms Swinson is why is she being so dishonest with everyone?

We know she's lying. She knows she's lying. She and we know that no man can ever be a woman and that no woman can ever be a man.

Why is she lying?

truthisarevolutionaryact · 23/07/2019 18:36

it's probably been said earlier in the thread but the Lib Dems are renowned for having some atrocious bullies in quite influential positions. Just take a look at their LGBT twitter account to see it in action. We know on here how hard it is to stand up to the vicious attacks, threats and doxxing. I suspect that a politician who needs an overview of so many areas (and is mistress of none) is just not prepared / equipped to stand up to the threats and harassment and simply metaphorically curtseys while agreeing that of course there is no difference between men self identifying as women and adult human females.
And under the bus go women and children.....

JackyHolyoake · 23/07/2019 18:39

I suspect that a politician who needs an overview of so many areas (and is mistress of none) is just not prepared / equipped to stand up to the threats and harassment and simply metaphorically curtsies while agreeing that of course there is no difference between men self identifying as women and adult human females.

Then maybe such a cowardly person is unfit to be any kind of leader?

truthisarevolutionaryact · 23/07/2019 18:40

Completely agree Jacky.

DarkAtEndOfTunnel · 23/07/2019 18:45

I lost all respect for the Lib Dems quite some time ago. All that they are is Tories for the middle classes, instead of the higher landed classes. They have no interest in trying to make life better for all: they are solely interested in maintaining the power of middle classes. I also do not believe that they have chosen their anti-Brexit stance purely for the good of the country, but largely because it marks them out as different and will bring them middle class votes. The Greens I can at least believe have some kind of principles and ideals, confused and naive and blinded by their privilege.

As for Jo Swinson, she is most famous for being the first to take her baby into a Commons debate. If someone who does that will not publicly acknowledge the difference between men and women she is clearly either a very confused individual with no clarity of thought whatsoever, or a humongous hypocrite. Neither makes for a suitable candidate for high political office.

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