I'm not convinced that feminism has helped the women it should have?

[soapona]

I think on these discussion boards and on my Facebook I see women. They don't insist on marriage so they partner remains married to the ex for years and year, they live together and I wonder what will happen should the man die. I also see women with no security living with men with no intentions of marrying and having children. Women moving in with men too soon. In the days gone by women would and could have insisted on commitment. So now the position for women is worse hanging round waiting for a proposal.

I know they don't have to I'm fairly wealthy and a single parent so have choices and always have. I don't have a lot to gain from marriage.

I'm not sure things have got better for women we are expected to do a lot now two incomes are the usual for a mortgage instead of one in the olden days . So it's a given women work, do the most childcare do we honestly think these thing will change when the power imbalance is there from the beginning?

Also the women marrying "beneath themselves", that's not the correct term but a man earning less and not likely to come into a decent inheritance. What is the point in getting married there if you're a women? Perhaps if the woman is wealthy to avoid inheritance tax for her children but other than that I don't know?

So would woman not be happier marrying the same or above and insisting on marriage early on, like it was a given in days gone by?

Surely Women are now in very risky positions due to this living together in a man's property. I see much more domestic abuse these days. I believe the stats are much higher with non married couples. Surely living together unmarried has been caused by equality and feminism and the very people feminists has been trying to help they've hindered.

Oh! Then we may as well all just kick off our shoes and stay home, be barefoot and pregannt until we are too old to be of any use... then The Men can reinvent Logan's Run / Soylent Green style solutions for us!

Pshaw!

Like that scene in Total Recall where the dictator turns off the oxygen and they all nearly die. That's where women are at currently.

Really?
There's hyperbole, then there's this.

No woman or man HAS to marry someone else.
No woman or man HAS to stay in a relationship if marriage is their line in the sand.
No woman or man HAS to make themselves financially dependent on someone else by opting to have children and leave their jobs because their DP earns more.

That's just neoliberalism, every man.. I mean person, for herself.

Those who want kids, families, who develop bonds of human affection, should get over it.

It's the same argument that is used to strip away every type of social security and community infrastructure. They should have made a different choice, looked out for their own interests, had an abortion, got a job, got a better education, saved their money.

Most of all, of course, women should work like men and get a nice pension, make sure they don't get pregnant, or want to care for their kids.

Men said 'ok then' but then made mortgages and rent so expensive forcing women to work full time despite often being mothers responsible for childcare. On top of this childcare is super expensive, and despite us working now, men still expect us to do most of the housework and childcare. So it's just lose lose lose for women and men yet again make gains at our expense.

That wasn't men. It was inevitable if all of a sudden you have two incomes in one household, home prices would go up.

So was the childcare issue, it has to be expensive, you effectively are hiring a servant to do work you used to do yourself. You may share her with others but the reason so few people have servants now is because labour is atrociously expensive.

In both these cases it really isn't possible to look at it clearly as just a male female issue, or even mainly that. It's an issue where middle class and educated women (the ones with the nice new jobs) are now entering the same workforce as te men were in, and are doing so mainly on the backs of the working classes and particularly working class women. Because working class people usually had two incomes already, but with housing prices increased that doesn't go as far. And working class women are the ones being rather poorly paid for that expensive childcare

I think it's really distressing that it's not allowed to look at what didn't go quite as people had hoped in terms of the women's movement. I end up wondering to whose advantage it is to not be able to say, what might we like to do differently.

I suppose though its a lot more satisfying and less work to just blame everything on men, as if they had the answers but are just keeping them secret.

I do think it's feminisms fault

No, it's capitalism's fault. The idea that both women and men should be able to earn a living and be financially independent is a sound idea.

That wages have been driven down so that 2 people's wages is equilateral to one years ago is to do with capitalism and free market forces, not feminism.

It was inevitable if all of a sudden you have two incomes in one household, home prices would go up

It's not inevitable, no. It's an aspect of capitalism. We're so used to it, it's seen as inevitable. It's no more inevitable in an objective sense than it used to be inevitable you'd get in a lot of trouble if you said the earth was flat.

It wasn’t feminists who advocated cohabitation instead of marriage it was MEN!

In both these cases it really isn't possible to look at it clearly as just a male female issue, or even mainly that. It's an issue where middle class and educated women (the ones with the nice new jobs) are now entering the same workforce as te men were in, and are doing so mainly on the backs of the working classes and particularly working class women. Because working class people usually had two incomes already, but with housing prices increased that doesn't go as far. And working class women are the ones being rather poorly paid for that expensive childcare

^^ Yup

Yes, that's what I meant, wiggly, it's inevitable in the context that we live in .
One of my biggest issues with the way feminism has dealt with the issue of work is that I think often it mistakes the mechanisms of capitalism for what it tends to call "patriarchy" when in fact the are quite different. And trying to join the capitalist class doesn't free women, it only frees capitalists - it really doesn't care about their sex. In fact it would love to have artificial wombs to make women more "free" to work.

I'm not sure that I think the answer is financial independence. I don't think humans can operate in that kind of way. We're always highly interdependent and childrearing probably more so than most other forms of work.

A lot of people are blaming capitalism. Then there are others blaming the social housing market. Being single parents on benefits or in social housing is not the answer. Some people argue that socialism brings down the family unit and I tend more to side with this.

It's very hard to change something so now inbedded in society. They used to say "religion keeps the masses in line", perhaps Christianity has helped woman in the past more than we would care to believe.

Are feminists looking out for one another? I don't know. In the past women did have a criteria for finding a man and for the most part women choose to marry the same or up. Makes life easier. They insisted on marriage and commitment. Made life easier too. Father's did not get automatic parental rights if they signed the birth certificate. They had to marry the mother and be committed.

I'm not against feminism I just don't think it's made society better and women or men happier.

I can't believe you're complaining about the pill as if feminists invented it.

The pill was financed by people who include Hugh Hefner. It was created by a medical industry that still to this day won't create a pill men can take to protect against pregnancy. Even though it's possible to create one, men "complain about side effects" so ok, women complain about side effects taking the pill but who cares. It was obviously created bc men benefit as much as women from it.

Your seem to be arguing that feminism is unnatural or something. Christianity benefiting women more than feminism?? You really need to read some history.

What are you doing to change things OP, or are you just sitting back and waiting for feminists to make change whilst you judge if they’ve done a good enough job for you or not?

I missed your answer to this excellent point OP, could you kindly repost it ? thanks

perhaps Christianity has helped woman in the past more than we would care to believe.

You lost any credibility with this. I mean you made some good points and some very thinly veiled attempts at policing women's behaviour , which were easier to overlook. But that last one really takes the piss.

If I had to choose I'd rather be a feminist than a Christian every time.

Soapona where do lesbians fit in your 1950s heterosexual utopia?

'Also the women marrying "beneath themselves", that's not the correct term but a man earning less and not likely to come into a decent inheritance. What is the point in getting married there if you're a women?'

This, in the op, also sounds weird.
Trying hard to sound sensible but, nope.

Socialism is the reason family units are so successful in the U.K.

We have the NHS, free education and family based benefits to support us.

Social housing offers people security of tenure which allows families continuity and security to raise children.

@M0RVEN No idea what I can do when women think that co habiting, going on the pill, having abortions at men's request as men are not ready, then having children when they are but not ready to marry. Then being left with very little security as they have invested so much in a relationship without commitment.

I suppose I would vote for laws to be passed on co habitation. Support education in women. Raise the age of consent. Value virginity, Value commitment.

Oh I'm not so flipping holy joe I just think woman have got themselves in a worse position. Where they don't value themselves in relationships and neither do the men.

perhaps Christianity has helped woman in the past more than we would care to believe.

That's a joke, right?

Value virginity

Strike two

What are your plans for abortion rights?

I’m in the middle on this..

While I agree with much of what you are saying and believe feminism is responsible for that..

I also think feminism has helped women in major major issues they faced.. but yeh I think it’s still has great room for improvement

@YourSarcasmIsDripping What's wrong with valuing virginity? Young girls encouraged by are over sexualised society are pushed into sex LONG before they're ready.

@soapona

So you don’t have any idea what you can do to help women ? Really no idea at all? The only think you could think of was to start a thread attacking feminists.

So are there no charities in your county that help women ? No charities overseas that you could donate to ? No political parties?

@Fraggling like the pill, legalised abortion has for the most part benefitted men not women!