I'm not convinced that feminism has helped the women it should have?

[soapona]

I think on these discussion boards and on my Facebook I see women. They don't insist on marriage so they partner remains married to the ex for years and year, they live together and I wonder what will happen should the man die. I also see women with no security living with men with no intentions of marrying and having children. Women moving in with men too soon. In the days gone by women would and could have insisted on commitment. So now the position for women is worse hanging round waiting for a proposal.

I know they don't have to I'm fairly wealthy and a single parent so have choices and always have. I don't have a lot to gain from marriage.

I'm not sure things have got better for women we are expected to do a lot now two incomes are the usual for a mortgage instead of one in the olden days . So it's a given women work, do the most childcare do we honestly think these thing will change when the power imbalance is there from the beginning?

Also the women marrying "beneath themselves", that's not the correct term but a man earning less and not likely to come into a decent inheritance. What is the point in getting married there if you're a women? Perhaps if the woman is wealthy to avoid inheritance tax for her children but other than that I don't know?

So would woman not be happier marrying the same or above and insisting on marriage early on, like it was a given in days gone by?

Surely Women are now in very risky positions due to this living together in a man's property. I see much more domestic abuse these days. I believe the stats are much higher with non married couples. Surely living together unmarried has been caused by equality and feminism and the very people feminists has been trying to help they've hindered.

Does free women covering-up voluntarily and PROUDLY CLAIMING that as an act supporting empowerment / culture / religion etc etc help the larger cause of women fighting the forced covering up of women by Muslim Governments

I'll answer your questions. Obviously only my personal views , which are not particularly reached at by applying any feminist theory.

On the first one quoted above , women choosing to cover up in countries where there is no legal or social compulsion to do so are a huge hindrance to women in countries where this is compelled.

And is your answer for above, consistent with your view of women PROUDLY CLAIMING marriage or version thereof as act in support of empowerment / love / culture / religion under Patriarchy, which makes marriage the path of least resistance - help the larger feminism cause

On the second one, which is a complete non sequitur btw, phrases like "under patriarchy" just make me roll my eyes but I'm not "proudly proclaiming" anything. I simply think the idea that a mutually beneficial partnership/ relationship or whatever you want to call a marriage is the same as prostitution is too stupid to take seriously.

Although such an idea is deeply unhelpful if one is arguing that prostitution is immoral (in the best and widest sense of that word) unethical , damaging to women and ultimately damaging to the good of society as a whole.

Patriarchy only survives because many women support it against their own and all other women’s interest. Or because men have more power, are physically stronger than us, and like it.
I am not suggesting that means we roll over and take the kicking but let's not blame it all on other women.

The OPs post seems to me more about how effective feminism has been for some women so far, rather than about ideology anyway - have I got that right? And the number of times I see women say, 'we were supposed to have it all but in reality we just do it all' makes me see there is some validity in that point. So you could argue that marriage is terrible because women in marriage do all the housework as well as working for money. Except that women do that in relationships where they aren't married. And not all marriages work that way. And even if we all lived separately (I'll leave someone else to worry about the housing and infrastructure needed in any country if we do) those with children still have to sort out their practicalities. Women who work already need to have someone else look after their children in the main. The people who do so are generally paid and usually other women, so doing it out of economic need - does that mean they are prostituting themselves to the working woman? Now I've bogged myself down talking crap but I'm going to let it stand because to me that's where the idea of putting marriage central to the problem leads.

To my mind it is the rampant unpunished abuse and killing of women, which allows Patriarchy to continue. If all men were punished for abusing and killing of women, Patriarchy would fall in our lifetime.

Now this is absolutely vital. This should be our foundation stone. But it doesn't matter whether we do this from within some of the structures patriarchy has built, and change them from within, or reject them entirely. Let's not forget that the legal system as well as marriage was built by men and is still run by men, but tearing down the whole legal system isn't the answer - we need to influence and change it and have an equal say in how it works - as many women now do within their marriages.

Women need to work together and the more women that can be drawn into feminism the better. But women are so tired of men telling them how to define themselves and how to live they really aren't going to want to hear that from other women either. And yes, I know internalised misogyny.

So yes OP, I hear you, though I don't agree with all your thinking, but guess we may be from different cultures. And my answer to you is that as women we have to do all that we can to fight for the legal and economic framework we need to have autonomy and safety whether within or outside of marriage

StopThePlanet
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You certainly attempt to brand women as prostitutes/whores and to define their lives based on poorly formed conjecture.

No I'm not, not at all.
Some women have intercourse in exchange for cash

Some women live with men, have their babies ( only his babies), do wifework and sexwork in exchange for legal protections and, sometimes money.

Both are prostitution.

None of these women are whores. Whore is a despicable word coined by men to denigrate a woman for reacting to the material reality in which she finds herself.

Let's not forget also, that men think all women are whores, when it comes down to it.

ome women live with men, have their babies ( only his babies), do wifework and sexwork in exchange for legal protections and, sometimes money

Oh thank fuck

I knew if i lurked long enough I’d get the answer to my question

Left wing men have capitalized on feminism in lots of ways, lots of "free" sex, rather than having to pay a prostitute, women refusing to be owned in marriage so doing wifework without legal protections and even doing wifework without expecting financial reimbursement.

Because women do like sex and they do want to have babies so, as feminists, they figured well it shouldn't be a transaction.

But this only works if women have economic clout, equality in the workplace, money of their own. And women basically still don't .

This is what the OP is on about when she asks if feminism has failed women.

Some women have intercourse in exchange for cash

Some women live with men, have their babies ( only his babies), do wifework and sexwork in exchange for legal protections and, sometimes money

Both are prostitution

Prostitution is a violation. Some women are raped and get cash for it. Prostitution is using another human being as a masturbation tool. It is degrading and debasing. It is not compatible with human dignity and is damaging to society as a whole. Opinion formers as diverse as Julie Bindel and Ben Shapiro can see that.

You say you are a feminist. Your constant repetition of marriage is legalised prostitution is a golden ticket for the pimp lobby.

It allows pimps and punters to say "How can prostitution be bad when here is a radical feminist saying it's no different from marriage" ?

So cohabiting is wrong because you're giving the milk out for free.
But marriage is prostitution.
So either way you're doing it wrong unless you meet some arbitrary standard or refuse to get involved with a man.
Good to know.

I get to have sex with my DH when I want, providing he wants to as well. I get to insist he is clean and fresh beforehand. I get to say what is and isn't acceptable for me. We have taken equal responsibility in making sure I don't get pregnant (not relevant now) and neither of us get ill as a result. We both care about our own pleasure and about each other's. And we both see it as an expression (among many others) of our love for for one another and treat each other with mutual respect and care before, during and after sex. And we are both able to remain happily married for extended periods when we are not having sex.

If actually prostitution was like that I'd say crack on folks that want to...

And yes Lass to your golden ticket comment

Let's not forget also, that men think all women are whores, when it comes down to it.
Seriously?

How can prostitution be bad when here is a radical feminist saying it's no different from marriage"

Isn't saying "well some wives like it" the same as saying "well some prostitutes like it"

I think most men do think prostitution is fine, they think that's what some women are for. The whores, the fallen women.

Men who think whores are expressing their sexuality have no idea of the material conditions that force women into selling themselves.
And I know the same applies to wives because of how harshly women have been punished for adultery, even today they can lose their children and be turfed out for it. So monogamy is clearly violently imposed on women in marriage, in the same way that intercourse with lots of men is violently imposed on prostitutes

@youkiddingme not all prostitutes are on drugs and go down an alley. In brothels men are requested to shower and the men do have a code of conduct. Not every married woman is so fortunate as you either.

I don't consider prostitution and marriage to be the same. I'm some ways unmarried woman giving up their careers to support a man, living in his house and living by his rules, is worse than prostitution. At least prostitutes/punter have an agreement. There is no agreement with cohabiting couples, other than be the wifey, do the wifey duties and one day may be your master will propose. If you are submissive enough to put up with that crap, which it appears regardless of how equal some women like to claim they are, are not!

There needs to be a reality check here for some people. Yes some men are lovely and don't exploit their position of power, many men do! In the past there was unspoken agreement about expectations of commitment and legal protection. Now women are in the dark and to add to the lack of commitment are expected to work when their children are young and it's a lot of pressure for them. Why defend this?, it's woman who have been pissed over and by woman happy to go along with it in the name of liberation! An own goal!

I'm some ways unmarried woman giving up their careers to support a man, living in his house and living by his rules, is worse than prostitutio

Dworkin was both a wife and a prostitute at different times. I might be remembering wrong but I'm pretty sure she said being a battered wife was worse than being a prostitute. That's just one woman's experience. I think the difference was that while the hatred from the John was impersonal, the hatred from the husband was impersonal (because she was a woman) but also personal

As you know I'm a mother's rights activist.

I think another major own goal of feminism is women who are the breadwinners going back to work soon after the baby is born and he becomes a SAHD. Then she wants to divorce and he gets to keep the kid and she pays him maintenance What a complete JOKE

Isn't saying "well some wives like it" the same as saying "well some prostitutes like it"

Why are you asking me? You are the one saying there is no difference between prostitution and marriage. You presumably have already formulated your answer.

It's certainly the argument a pimp and a punter would run with it. If you agree with it , then as far as I'm concerned you are on the side of pimps and punters, not women.

Men generally have more power than women. So marrying one and choosing to have sex with him is prostitution.
But in pretty much all societies men have more power whether they are married or not. So all women having sex with men are prostitutes by your logic.

I just knew you'd pick out one or two of my comments differentiating between my experience of sex and those of a prostitute to say they are the same soapona whilst willfully ignoring the real differences - vis choice and respect.

I say again, yes women take a lot of shit from men because of the power imbalance but it is the economic and legal framework that suppresses and exploits women, and the men who maintain their power through them. Marriage itself is not the problem. The laws regarding marriage have been re-written, due to the great work of many feminists. I grew up in a time when my mum's mail came addressed to MR John..., when he was very much in charge of financial and legal affairs in the home, and of course rape within marriage was not a crime. Of course there's so much more to be done, but hell let's just call all the progress a waste of time because marriage is just prostitution anyway.

I just knew you'd pick out one or two of my comments differentiating between my experience of sex and those of a prostitute to say they are the same soapona whilst willfully ignoring the real differences - vis choice and respect.

@youkiddingme Everyone has a choice including hookers! You're comparing prostitution to rape they are not the same. So every prostitute has no respect for herself and every wife/co habitee does? Of course not.

In brothels men are requested to shower and the men do have a code of conduct

Men who visit brothels have a code of conduct- how can anyone, who isn't a member of the punter and pimp lobby, say that with a straight face?

So every prostitute has no respect for herself

I doubt very much that anyone on here opposing the punter lobby has ever said that.

“n brothels men are requested to shower and the men do have a code of conduct”

Did someone really post that with a straight face?

I think if you live with a man, to put up with him and have sex with him (whether married or not) purely for financial reasons, that is a sort of prostitution. You do see a lot of women on mn looking for “providers”. It’s kind of the same as prostitution although I suppose they are providing other services too (cleaning, etc).

*@youkiddingme
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I say again, yes women take a lot of shit from men because of the power imbalance but it is the economic and legal framework that suppresses and exploits women, and the men who maintain their power through them. Marriage itself is not the problem. The laws regarding marriage have been re-written, due to the great work of many feminists. I grew up in a time when my mum's mail came addressed to MR John..., when he was very much in charge of financial and legal affairs in the home, and of course rape within marriage was not a crime. Of course there's so much more to be done, but hell let's just call all the progress a waste of time because marriage is just prostitution anyway.

You're acting like we are in some nirvana where woman are no longer battered daily, controlled and the good work of feminists has helped women no end! Not true: woman are murdered by their partners, woman's refugees are thriving, the family unit has broken down, woman are exhausted with the expectation upon them. They are encouraged to go on the pill young have casual sex then have an abortions, should there be an accident (to hang with any mental health issues this may bring a woman and by having this also reinforces that relationships can be disposable). All in the name of liberal feminism.

Also I think it’s a bit bigoted to claim that women who dress a certain way voluntarily are somehow responsible for countries which compel women to wear particular clothes. You may not wish to dress that way but if other women choose to, it’s up to them.

“In brothels men are requested to shower and the men do have a code of conduct”

Did someone really post that with a straight face?

Unless my irony meter is broken the OP did in her post at 16.39. Here is the full post.

soapona

@youkiddingme not all prostitutes are on drugs and go down an alley. In brothels men are requested to shower and the men do have a code of conduct. Not every married woman is so fortunate as you either

I don't consider prostitution and marriage to be the same. I'm some ways unmarried woman giving up their careers to support a man, living in his house and living by his rules, is worse than prostitution. At least prostitutes/punter have an agreement. There is no agreement with cohabiting couples, other than be the wifey, do the wifey duties and one day may be your master will propose. If you are submissive enough to put up with that crap, which it appears regardless of how equal some women like to claim they are, are not!

n brothels men are requested to shower and the men do have a code of conduct

How nice and respectable and cosy.

On the other hand we have girls and women that have had injuries and even died during cam work. Without even being in the room with an actual man they have been harmed in their attempt to satisfy some random man's sexual needs.

But that's ok , some punters shower so it's all good.