I'm not convinced that feminism has helped the women it should have?

[soapona]

I think on these discussion boards and on my Facebook I see women. They don't insist on marriage so they partner remains married to the ex for years and year, they live together and I wonder what will happen should the man die. I also see women with no security living with men with no intentions of marrying and having children. Women moving in with men too soon. In the days gone by women would and could have insisted on commitment. So now the position for women is worse hanging round waiting for a proposal.

I know they don't have to I'm fairly wealthy and a single parent so have choices and always have. I don't have a lot to gain from marriage.

I'm not sure things have got better for women we are expected to do a lot now two incomes are the usual for a mortgage instead of one in the olden days . So it's a given women work, do the most childcare do we honestly think these thing will change when the power imbalance is there from the beginning?

Also the women marrying "beneath themselves", that's not the correct term but a man earning less and not likely to come into a decent inheritance. What is the point in getting married there if you're a women? Perhaps if the woman is wealthy to avoid inheritance tax for her children but other than that I don't know?

So would woman not be happier marrying the same or above and insisting on marriage early on, like it was a given in days gone by?

Surely Women are now in very risky positions due to this living together in a man's property. I see much more domestic abuse these days. I believe the stats are much higher with non married couples. Surely living together unmarried has been caused by equality and feminism and the very people feminists has been trying to help they've hindered.

What you're doing is called projection soapona.
What you are saying is "some people have bad relationships which means all people have bad relationships". Only the first half is true.
And StopThePlanet's and youkiddingme's (and my own) experience of marriage is the polar opposite of yours.

My parents were married for 50 odd years. Working class. My father worked 12 hour shifts including nights to provide for his family. He died of lung disease probably contracted through work. My mother also worked throughout their marriage - in my life seasonal farm work -potato picking, stooking, weeding and rearing keeping battery hens to sell eggs. They both left school at 14.
I took care of them in their last years of life. I saw my father cry for the first time when my mother was critically ill. In the event he died first and I witnessed my mother's grief and loss.
How dare you try and reduce dignified caring human relationships to transactions and prostitution.

Oh and I went to university worked in a professional job thanks to feminism.

And don't get me started on women who WOHM and lose custody to SAHDs. I think that might be possibly be feminisms biggest fail, if it had anything to do with feminism at all

Why should they get custody? The child’s best interests should be the top priority and if that’s staying with a male primary carer then there really is no issue.

Well I'm not married so I'm not a prostitute yet. Oh,but wait I'm also daft and have no protection and giving the milk away for free. But if I got married I'd be a prostitute. Ermmm that's it, OH is history,this is all too complicated.

@Imnobody4

How dare you try and reduce dignified caring human relationships to transactions and prostitution.

Oh and I went to university worked in a professional job thanks to feminism.

It doesn't mean you don't love and bond if there is a power imbalance.

As for your in a professional job due to modern feminism. Can I ask what it is? My mum and her sister came from a working class background and became Drs and a teacher in the 1960s, so I'm intrigued what 2019 is offering you that 1960 did not. I suppose now you have to pay tuition fees and don't get a student grant (that according to my mother, you could save on) , can't see the progress for cognitively gifted girls from working class backgrounds now.

Sakura184
Your understanding of Dworkin is as one dimensional as your politics.
“I don’t believe rape is inevitable or natural. If I did, I would have no reason to be here. If I did, my political practice would be different than it is. Have you ever wondered why we [women] are not just in armed combat against you? It’s not because there’s a shortage of kitchen knives in this country. It is because we believe in your humanity, against all the evidence.” Andrea Dworkin

As for the rape/consensual sex. I struggle hard to believe that many women don't just go through the motions with sex

Nope. Occasionally during menopause I would feel randy then the urge would suddenly die during the act. It was very clear to me it was me not him or us, but I had no problem saying, 'sorry it's not working for me this time' and he had no problem accepting it.

As for power/work imbalance - my DH sat beside me whilst I was in a coma for a week then was carer for me for 6 months whilst working part-time and also being a carer for our disabled daughter - who I had previously been caring for. Even now, I have disabilities and long-term health problems which mean what I can contribute is often less than what he can. But he knows (and verbalises) that I do all I what I can, and he does what else needs doing, 'because we are a team'.
Yup shit this marriage stuff, must be why I've put up with it for 36 years. And no, neither of us are saints and we both take the piss sometimes or have spats or drive each other demented on occasion. But we don't stick together because of a contract but because we know that the shit stuff is trivial compared to the really good stuff.

But yes, marriage is really shit for some people. Especially in some cultures. And men take and keep all the power in some marriages. But a generalised, 'marriage is prostitution' is rubbish.

@youkiddingme

He does sound like a lovely man. Would you remarry if you became a widow?

I don't know soapona - it seems unlikely, I cannot even imagine dating after 4 decades with one man, and I don't feel a need to be married per se I'm just glad I am. I really can't imagine what it would be like to be married to anyone else.

As a survivor of child molestation and rape at the hands of boys/men I am quite qualified to know the difference between consensual and non-consensual touching as well as the difference between having sex to please myself versus 'giving in' to a man's desires for his own pleasure or having it taken from me (rape) thank you very much.

Having sex with another person for only their pleasure is something that's beyond my comprehension - I would never do it because you relinquish your sexual autonomy at their feet by doing so, you give up your own pleasure and your own desires to serve another and that is not anywhere in my playbook. My DH would never want me to 'serve him' or I wouldn't have stayed with him and nor he with I. If one of us isn't enjoying ourselves we make adjustments or we stop - because we are adults and can communicate about our sexual activities. I'm not embarrassed to say this doesn't feel good or I don't like it or don't do that or stop even though my female socialization taught me differently.

I've been with my husband for 24 years we've been married 18 years. We are equal partners (with different skills/talents/biology) I can't speak for other women or their experiences I've made that very clear. We do yard work together (I mow the grass and he does the weed whacking, I climb and trim the trees with a chainsaw, he cleans the gutters and sweeps off the roof), if I cook he cleans and vice versa. He does most of the dusting because he's around 6'5" and can reach every surface without having to climb and I tend to do the vacuuming because I'm around 5'4". I handle all the finances because I work in the financial sector and I like it, he handles making sure we document our life together through photos and video because he is a TV producer/editor. The point is we as a team ensure that the duties in our household are split equally and when one of us doesn't want to do something anymore we trade duties or we re-work the schedule until we decide to change it yet again. We don't have children we have big dogs and we take care of them equally as well - I bathe one while he bathes the other, we cut their nails together and go to vet appointments as a family.

I seriously doubt I'm unique in my experience in this day and age. But I also didn't come at marriage like I needed someone to take care of me or pay my bills or provide support for some children that don't exist - I came at it from a standpoint of wanting to share my life with him specifically... the joys, the pains, the successes, and the failures. Plenty of rich/wealthy men (and women) try to pull my gaze (because of my work I am around them constantly) but I'm not an accessory, property, or fuck doll so it has never interested me. For those of you that find money that attractive that's cool for you - I find it to be incredibly shallow and uninteresting.

I will repeat it again I have never had sex that I didn't want. Your choices are your choices and other women's choices are their choices. I can't speak for women who fuck someone without regard for their own pleasure (bizarre IMO) and 100% aligns with the perspective that women are to be subordinate to men.

Comparing my relationship to your mother's relationship is disingenuous... I'm 42 years old and considering you are an adult the general environment (government, public, finances, et al) my relationship is going to be much different than your mother's (because FEMINISM!) or I wouldn't be married. My relationship is nothing like my grandparents who have been together for 60yrs. My relationship is nothing like my mother's relationship with my father was or her subsequent relationships - she calls me for marital advice because I've come at it from a much different perspective (because FEMINISM!) than her generation or most generations before.

(Again, my perspective above does not encompass rape, rape in marriage, non-consensual touch of any kind, prostitution, or trafficking.)

And as a woman who grew up in a single-parent lower-income household who helped raise her brother I have no idea what it's like to be wealthy or depend on another's resources. I do know sacrifice, I know that all of the activities I wanted to do (from 9yrs old - 16yrs old) were limited because I had a little boy to help my mom take care of.

I don't live above my means - we always live considerably below our means (I am the enforcer of this) because it provides a level of safety from becoming destitute due to unforeseen circumstances. I could walk away today leave my home and all of my physical assets (with no intent for recompense) and set right back up in another place on my own with no problem (it's just stuff). But I began building that stability for myself starting at 16yrs old - once I finally got an apartment I started saving every penny that wasn't needed for bare necessities. I didn't have a TV or any form of entertainment beyond books and nature. I have such an appreciation for the simple things (a home, nutritious food, a smile from a random person, a drop of rain on a leaf, a hug from a friend, the joy/pride I see in DH's eyes/face when I share one of my successes).

What I do see again and again is women who have gotten divorced (bad choices, we all make them) shitting all over something that I value (my relationship, a good choice for me) and effectively call me a prostitute/whore (thanks for attempting to define me without knowing me and based on assumptions - so fucking dense and lacking in self-awareness lol). All this marriage=prostitution stuff says a lot more about those making the claims than of which they speak. It tells me that there are women out there that want to blame other people for their poor choices and seek to invalidate my choices. This really isn't my problem.

In many Muslim countries the women and girls are forced to cover-up to various level and degree.

In Free Democratic countries certain Muslim women and girls voluntarily cover up as matter of personal choice giving various reasons such as feeling empowered, wanting to support / identify with their culture and religion etc etc.

The Muslim Governments use the examples of these "free women and girls" choosing to cover-up for their purpose to keep forcing the women and girls to cover-up by force in support of empowering women, supporting their culture and religion etc.

Feminists (Muslim and Secular) have asked the free women to stop covering-up so that the Muslim Governments do not have this, to use against women in their countries.

What would the FWR members think the free women should do?

I think this problem is the parallel problem in the meaning and structure of marriage in 2019 under Patriarchy.

We know free women would not choose to cover-up because there are free democratic countries which has proved that this is the case, however even as yet in 2019 there is no country that is not Patriarchal. There is no modern country which has shown us what would be the women's behaviour be regarding the meaning and structure of marriage in a Free Country – not under Patriarchy.

So how is it possible for women who say their marriage is not a form of prostitution etc etc but a free and empowering choice.

It may be but at the moment women are living in the marriage equivalent of a Muslim Country where marriage is still the path of least resistance and along with all the rampant unpunished abuse and killing of women by men which also controls women's free behaviour.

You can not blame some women, who argue that no women should claim that marriage or versions thereof is their empowering free choice until all women are free to reject it freely as well. In parallel to the request by Muslim Feminists who ask women not to cover-up as their free empowering choice in Free Democratic Countries.

I loved reading that StopThePlanet - thank you for sharing. It was beautiful to read as well as a very dignified and pertinent response to the thread.

Ok so women in my country should make our decisions based on countries that are thousands of years old with dogma and various woman-abusing infrastructures spanning more than 10x the time my country has existed?

By that logic I should have carried out the pregnancy that was a product of rape to my own detriment and the child's (I wouldn't have kept it) because females are aborted at an insanely higher rate than males in some countries?

We should deny ourselves the freedoms/rights that our foremothers fought for in our countries?

Should we not: prosecute rape or DV, have uncoerced abortions, vote, use birth control for our own reasons, not have sex segregated bathrooms/locker rooms/changing rooms, etc. because our sisters in those countries don't have the same rights?

IMO:
I think we need to exercise all of our rights in support of our sisters in those countries that don't enjoy the rights we enjoy. We need to do what we can for them while we fight at home. We need to be there for them when they flee their countries or they seek help from afar - not deny ourselves the rights that our foremothers fought, bled, and in some cases died for.

We don't do the women in those countries any favors by giving men more power in our countries.

youkiddingme

I loved reading that StopThePlanet - thank you for sharing. It was beautiful to read as well as a very dignified and pertinent response to the thread.

Thanks! I tend to be incredibly verbose and was cramming so much into that post 😁 I was a little 🙃 I spent so much time writing it and thought no one may read it.

In case of doubt - I believe in Feminism

Women should overthrow Patriarchy in all countries.

Let there be no fear by any women of being abused, raped and killed by men that will go unpunished.

Only then it will be clear what is women's free behaviour in all matters including marriage.

A genuine choice free of Patriarchy.

MaeWest1890
Women should overthrow Patriarchy in all countries And replace it with what?
Only then it will be clear what is women's free behaviour in all matters including marriage.
I'm not convinced of the possibility of creating a blank slate.
Adapting John Rawls veil of ignorance would be more useful.
If you don't know to what station in life you will be born into - male female, race, ability, disability. How would you organise society.

Yes to your last post MaeWest1890 but overthrowing the patriarchy, if it is even possible, will require uniting women and any feminist ideology which brands a woman a whore for choosing marriage probably won't do that.

Nor can I go along with any feminist narrative that judges women based on how they would behave 'if'. Women make choices based on the reality they live.

I won't experience choices free of patriarchy in my lifetime.

So I refuse to give men my power by genuflecting at the altar of patriarchy by reducing my choices to men's scope, influence, and design.

I refuse to see my choices through rose colored glasses or a patriarchal lens - they are MY choices within the society to which I contribute and exist.

I don't believe our feminist foremothers would want us to view ourselves through rosy or patriarchal lenses as neither are who we actually are - they were warriors and believed we could be too. They may have expected/hoped us to be further along (as in societies' treatment of women/girls) and fought so we wouldn't need to rise to such challenges to our basic rights but here we are.

Our choices are mostly not governed by men because that gift was given to us by the work of our foremothers (mostly in the western world) - now we have to defend what was gained by their efforts.

We only have so much power in this world, and I am holding onto every shred I've got.

any feminist ideology which brands a woman a whore for choosing marriage probably won't do that.

I don't think it's feminism that brands women as whores, I think it's men that do that, and I think it's men and their system that turns women into whores.
I just know that marriage is not a free exchange, it's a transaction that would be unnecessary under different circumstances. It's women making the best of a bad job.

And do you think feminism would get anywhere if it was worried about upsetting people, about being too manhating, too terfy, too analytical.

I think your point essentially is that feminism I doomed to fail, because women just do simply like and love men too much to even save themselves. That seems to be the bare bones of it.

On the issue of feminism not being likeable, it has just been argued on another thread that gender critical feminism is putting young women off feminism.
I think feminism basically has two problems: 1) it is by women, and 2) men don't like it.

There's a proportion of men who are always going to hate women for being women, and they hate women for standing up and speaking out for women. We know this. We have lived this.

I don't think it's feminism that brands women as whores, I think it's men that do that, and I think it's men and their system that turns women into whores.

You certainly attempt to brand women as prostitutes/whores and to define their lives based on poorly formed conjecture.

You appear to be a sheep in wolf's clothing, for all your foaming at the mouth you see yourself as powerless... your exact words were patriarchy is just too overwhelming, and we are just too powerless so I don't fear your bite. Your curtsey to men's power veiled by angry words is untenable.

I am concerned that you keep centering manhating claiming it to be feminism and like to tell other women who/what they are and what they should be centering and fighting for.

You seem to be quite proud of your behavior. It isn't about being nice but it is about respecting other women's autonomy and seeing each other as equals.

Soapona

It doesn't mean you don't love and bond if there is a power imbalance.

Seeing all relationships as intrinsically about power is a sign of a psychopath.

Neither do traditions and customs necessarily amount to power imbalance.

As for your in a professional job due to modern feminism. Can I ask what it is?

Can I ask where your wealth came from ?

My mum and her sister came from a working class background and became Drs and a teacher in the 1960s, so I'm intrigued what 2019 is offering you that 1960 did not.

What do you mean?

I suppose now you have to pay tuition fees and don't get a student grant (that according to my mother, you could save on) , can't see the progress for cognitively gifted girls from working class backgrounds now.

This has nothing to do with feminism it's politics affecting boys and girls.
In my day it was generally considered a waste of time and money for girls to stay on at school after the 5th form. It's entirely down to feminism that I stayed on at school.
Without that my choices would have been non-existent.
Oh and medical schools had a quota system. There was a cap on how many female students were admitted.

I'm really baffled at how you argue the optimal choice for women is find themselves a man with money when you speak about your mother's marriage in the way you do, or do you mean she'd have been happier without an education.

I think your point essentially is that feminism I doomed to fail, because women just do simply like and love men too much to even save themselves. That seems to be the bare bones of it.
Hang on Sakura184 earlier you were saying feminism wouldn't succeed. I think you're far more invested in hating men than in dismantling patriarchy. You made your own decisions, you have an M A, did you consider how you would support yourself when you chose it. You knew divorces happen, (because of feminism), you chose the man. You had other options. I agree with Plant.
You know men infantilse women enough already, don't do it to yourself.

Nobody wants to directly respond to my question in post above?

Does free women covering-up voluntarily and PROUDLY CLAIMING that as an act supporting empowerment / culture / religion etc etc help the larger cause of women fighting the forced covering up of women by Muslim Governments.

And is your answer for above, consistent with your view of women PROUDLY CLAIMING marriage or version thereof as act in support of empowerment / love / culture / religion under Patriarchy, which makes marriage the path of least resistance - help the larger feminism cause.

StopThePlanet
"I won't experience choices free of patriarchy in my lifetime."

I know Politicians lie but I do not think in this instance, Thatcher was lying when in 1970 she said “There will not be a woman prime minister in my lifetime,” she became Prime Minister 9 years later and remained Prime Minister for nearly 12 years.

Women always underestimate their abilities (men overestimate theirs) – surprise surprise!

Patriarchy only survives because many women support it against their own and all other women’s interest.

In a democratic country, if women unite, they can make sure feminist analysis of men’s and women’s behaviour is properly accounted for, so that Police do not ignore Women’s abuse and the rapist does not go free because a woman froze in the moment and did not scream out.

To my mind it is the rampant unpunished abuse and killing of women, which allows Patriarchy to continue. If all men were punished for abusing and killing of women, Patriarchy would fall in our lifetime.

Imnobody4

Women should overthrow Patriarchy in all countries "And replace it with what?"
Only then it will be clear what is women's free behaviour in all matters including marriage.
"I'm not convinced of the possibility of creating a blank slate.
Adapting John Rawls veil of ignorance would be more useful.
If you don't know to what station in life you will be born into - male female, race, ability, disability.

How would you organise society."

Regular actions by women to avoid being sexually assaulted compared to men - attached jpg.

Graham Linehan said recently “For almost a year, my twitter feed has been devoted to highlighting the painful tensions that exist between women’s rights and currently fashionable gender ideology. I’m writing this because I’m going to back off from it for a while. Being smeared as a bigot takes a toll and responding to every attack exhausts reserves of energy I have to start putting back into my work." (my emphasis)

And bare in mind he has the benefit of living with woman in marriage all along.

In The Guardian Article Rebecca Solnit: If I were a man. Rebecca Solnit wishes that she was a man, so she did not have to fight all the time, every hour; every day; every week; every month; every year; year after year for things that all men are given automatically and they do not have to fight for.

If women were free as men to put their energy into their work, I am very sure women will come up with better alternatives to Patriarchy.