I'm not convinced that feminism has helped the women it should have?

[soapona]

I think on these discussion boards and on my Facebook I see women. They don't insist on marriage so they partner remains married to the ex for years and year, they live together and I wonder what will happen should the man die. I also see women with no security living with men with no intentions of marrying and having children. Women moving in with men too soon. In the days gone by women would and could have insisted on commitment. So now the position for women is worse hanging round waiting for a proposal.

I know they don't have to I'm fairly wealthy and a single parent so have choices and always have. I don't have a lot to gain from marriage.

I'm not sure things have got better for women we are expected to do a lot now two incomes are the usual for a mortgage instead of one in the olden days . So it's a given women work, do the most childcare do we honestly think these thing will change when the power imbalance is there from the beginning?

Also the women marrying "beneath themselves", that's not the correct term but a man earning less and not likely to come into a decent inheritance. What is the point in getting married there if you're a women? Perhaps if the woman is wealthy to avoid inheritance tax for her children but other than that I don't know?

So would woman not be happier marrying the same or above and insisting on marriage early on, like it was a given in days gone by?

Surely Women are now in very risky positions due to this living together in a man's property. I see much more domestic abuse these days. I believe the stats are much higher with non married couples. Surely living together unmarried has been caused by equality and feminism and the very people feminists has been trying to help they've hindered.

X post OP.

One of the things that I very much dislike about postmodernism and queer theory is that whenever you question it, someone will say that you don’t really understand it

If it was worth understanding they'd be able to express it in plain English without dressing it up in academic waffle.

Much of my annoyance with the whole movement and their 'most vulnerable evah' schtick lies in my years of working with the public and knowing that actual vulnerable people simply wouldn't have the first clue what they're wittering on about.

That makes them very, very dangerous. Laws need to be understood by all, not just those with PhDs in esoteric horseshit.

soapona

I'm thrilled that you're planning to read RWW, and maybe even join the reading group?
Thanks to the hard work of some French feminists it's available for free online as a pdf. Women, being quite poor on average, might find it difficult to buy books so it's great that we can access this stuff online now.

I should really leave this for the book group but as I'm reading RWW now something stood out for me.

She writes: "feminism is hated, because women are hated"

I think for me this sums up whether your political activism or whatever it is you're doing is actually feminism or if it's something entirely different

Laws need to be understood by all, not just those with PhDs in esoteric horseshit.

Excellent turn of phrase.

I don't hate feminists. I'm just frustrated sometimes that some people seem to want to use as a wedge to drive between the sexes. Of course, there are uncomfortable truths which need to be faced but I sense that some people don't actually want men and women to get on.

Back to the OP.

My mum is in her 70’s. She spent 26 years with my abusive father. When he started, there were no places for her to go. Nobody she told, including doctors, did a thing and she felt too weak and poor to leave with 4 young kids and a serious endometriosis condition. She only left at aged 50 because feminists had worked hard to enable women like her to leave, both by providing places to go and social welfare to support, along with of course, having conversations both public and private that changed the way she thought about herself. Amazingly she was quite strong and feminist in many ways, but as an abused women her confidence and self worth meant she did not extend the kindness to herself she extended to others. My point is, to say feminism has done ‘nothing’ or not helped the ‘women it’s supposed to’, to me, is a lie. It’s demonstrably false. There are areas we seem to have created a harder life for ourselves, with expectations to want both a career and family and the burden falling to us in the main, but that doesn’t mean it’s a total failure. I think it means we see where we can improve and are not willing to keep settling.

Today, this same previously abused women who felt she didn’t deserve better than to be a racist man’s punching bag, stood by herself by the All Blacks bus, on her way to work as she’s still working full time in her 70’s, she stood and gave a large group of very rich, very tall, huge scary looking famous rugby men, a long lecture about the impact of domestic violence and how they are contributing to it by including and excusing rugby players who abuse. On her own. Once upon a time she didn’t have the courage to stand up to one sad weak man.

Don’t tell me feminism failed her. Please.

I mean that it is not realistic that people live as if they were a single parent while in a relationship.

Yes, I think this is very true and extends more generally as well. Human beings are interdependent upon each other. It's unwise to underestimate this, and unhealthy to try and exist outside of it.

It is true though that as individuals we have some level of personal responsibility for our own choices, and to engage in solving our own problems. There are certain kinds of internal problems that no one else can really solve for us, and some decisions have consequences we can't escape, and it doesn't help to try. Sometimes bad things happen, sometimes we make the wrong decisions, we can't control other people.

lord

Oh FFS!

Why are you here? - Start a new movement called NotAllMenism and go start fighting misogynist men. #notallmen

Men have a track record for not being bothered about women's opinion and support so I am sure you and other men will get this new movement off the ground - if you really want!

Stop Men killing and raping women on a mass scale!

Men do not need to get along with women to achive this first

No sorry you don’t get to dismiss it as #notallmen scenario when the poster everyone is responding to has literally said for days now, all men. Said it repeatedly. So no, not relevant Mae

JessicaWakefieldSV

That's an example of a very concrete kind of social change, isn't it? Those kinds of initiatives have often been really successful. There aren't really many people who come right out and support domestic abuse, it's generally something that we seem to agree on as a society, and we see that there are some concrete actions we can take, and people took them.

But then there are these big, system, problems, or problems where there doesn't seem to be a clear approach, or things that people, including women, disagree on, or things feminists disagree about. Those things are always going to be a lot harder to address, and mistakes and misdirection are more likely.

What chaps my hide is the idea that talking about these issues is somehow hating women, or not allowed because it discredits feminism. It's really just a way for people who like those approaches to enforce a nodebate stance.

Speaking of which, that kind of thing, and personal attacks, and pulling oppression rank, are probably some of the worst features feminism picked up over the years and now its being used against it. I hope it makes for some self-reflection on the use of those kinds of tactics.

Here is another thing that has failed:

Trying to win points by dismissing arguments by saying things like "notallmen" or "whataboutery". Both tend to be invoked when someone can't actually speak to the point being made. Pointing out problems with the basic structure or facts of a claim is a perfectly valid approach, you have to show why it's not valid in a particular instance.

Jess
"No sorry you don't get to dismiss it as #notallmen scenario when the poster everyone is responding to has literally said for days now, all men. Said it repeatedly. So no, not relevant Mae"

Tell me how many men tolerate everyday sexism and tell me how men tolerate everyday racism.

Every man would call out himself all racism or if he is afraid, will report racism to others who can call it out!

If your answer is that racism is worse then sexism - then your moral compass is calibrated wrong.

If a woman's casual or instinctive punch of the fist was strong enough to hurt most men - Sexism would have died down years ago.

Because women can not punch a man in fun way that would physically do some unintentional real damage, is the reason women keep having to suffer everyday sexism.

So yes - it is ALL MEN!

But then there are these big, system, problems, or problems where there doesn't seem to be a clear approach, or things that people, including women, disagree on, or things feminists disagree about. Those things are always going to be a lot harder to address, and mistakes and misdirection are more likely.

Yes exactly. Some things are so complex we will have to keep altering our approaches as we go and may go backwards before we go forwards again, and that is frustrating.

Erm didn't I reference Richard Leader's article as proof I don't think all men.
But even if I did think all men, so what?

So yes - it is ALL MEN!

No it isn’t and nothing in your last comment convinced me of that, nor my personal life experience.

I’m a Māori wahine and have no interest in hierarchies of oppression. And I’m not sure if you are genuinely saying all men call out racism or not, but that’s completely and utterly false. I know it is.

But even if I did think all men, so what?

Well, it’s not true so you’ll get some pushback on nonsense here. Care to respond yet to the posts from earlier which did as you asked and responded re marriage is prostitution? Or can’t you do that without quoting from a book?

Also, all men what?

I said I've never come across a single man who helped feminism then I remembered there has been one, so one there

All men benefit from patriarchy, this we know

We want to keep all men out of women's bathrooms, I think that's generally understood on here.

Do you know I'm getting tired of this paralysis by analysis. How did patriarchy start, who is the purist feminist of all , what a total failure all the feminists who came before were.
We're facing the biggest threat to humanity ever. Climate change is going to have a devasting effect on women. AI being developed with male bias which will wipe out many of the jobs women do. Surrogacy and prostitution becoming not just normalised but celebrated.
The coming together of women in the face of the GRA is the best thing I've seen of feminism since the 3rd wave took over. That is because it is targeted and unites all kinds of women. Reading polemics from the 60s and 70s is not going to win the battles around the corner. We need to strategise and build coalitions. How do we make sure the internet represents the interests of women. Ffs TRAs have managed to gain more of a foothold in all our institutions than feminists.

All men benefit from patriarchy, this we know

Nobody disagreed with that. That’s not what you’ve been saying all over FWR is it.

It doesn't matter if I think all men or if I think not all men. Why is this being argued?

Imnobody4 well I think the point of certain new posters to FWR is specifically to cause division and derail threads.

sakura184

Will you respond to the posters Re your assertion all marriage is prostitution?

Imnobody4

I agree that the GRA stuff has brought different kinds of women together . And I agree with you about climate .

But we aren't going to get anywhere if I say men have destroyed the world, turned it into a nuclear shit tip with frankenfoods and frankenseeds- which all happened on men's watch and someone pipes up with not all men. Like what does that argument even mean?

I do think marriage is prostitution yes.