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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I'm not convinced that feminism has helped the women it should have?

905 replies

soapona · 22/07/2019 13:18

I think on these discussion boards and on my Facebook I see women. They don't insist on marriage so they partner remains married to the ex for years and year, they live together and I wonder what will happen should the man die. I also see women with no security living with men with no intentions of marrying and having children. Women moving in with men too soon. In the days gone by women would and could have insisted on commitment. So now the position for women is worse hanging round waiting for a proposal.

I know they don't have to I'm fairly wealthy and a single parent so have choices and always have. I don't have a lot to gain from marriage.

I'm not sure things have got better for women we are expected to do a lot now two incomes are the usual for a mortgage instead of one in the olden days . So it's a given women work, do the most childcare do we honestly think these thing will change when the power imbalance is there from the beginning?

Also the women marrying "beneath themselves", that's not the correct term but a man earning less and not likely to come into a decent inheritance. What is the point in getting married there if you're a women? Perhaps if the woman is wealthy to avoid inheritance tax for her children but other than that I don't know?

So would woman not be happier marrying the same or above and insisting on marriage early on, like it was a given in days gone by?

Surely Women are now in very risky positions due to this living together in a man's property. I see much more domestic abuse these days. I believe the stats are much higher with non married couples. Surely living together unmarried has been caused by equality and feminism and the very people feminists has been trying to help they've hindered.

OP posts:
JessicaWakefieldSV · 25/07/2019 14:40

Marriage is prostitution... well that is an ill-conceived perspective. The idea that anyone would continuously have sex that wasn't enjoyable for them is mind blowing to me - whether in a relationship, single, or prostitute (hate the term). I wouldn't do it - I wouldn't sell my existence for a house, a car, or for all of the money (or insert whatever) in the world. (I was homeless at 16 and a survivor - there is always another solution beyond fucking your way to comfort - unless trafficked of course).

I don't need anything from DH but as I stated previously his presence enriches my life (in many ways), and I quite like having a partner with which I can communicate without words. We read each other's cues and respect boundaries as not doing so would be a deal breaker i.e. transgressions require discussion, reflection, and closing discussion. We love each other deeply, we laugh heartily, and sometimes cry in happiness as well as sadness - we hold each for no reason and for all the reasons.

Having a healthy marriage can mean different things to different people depending on their needs/desires. Because I've never looked to a partner (male or female) to fulfill my needs I see the assertion of marriage=prostitution as seeking to diminish mature partnership in order to discredit those of us that create our happiness and enjoy sharing our lives with a partner not based on need. There is no exploitation here, there is no need to stay, but there is a partnered commitment to being happy as individuals and enriching life for each other (and our 'team' - four of us if you count the dogs).

Asserting this ridiculous claim that marriage=prostitution is seriously incompetent, ill-informed, and emotionally unintelligent. Dworkin doesn't have a clue in this regard (as evidenced by her writings), and quoting her writings like they are a bible of sorts isn't doing you any favours

I have known/do know many women (some family, some acquaintances, some friends) that feel men and marriage are responsible for their stations in life. None of them were forced into their marriages or got pregnant and felt they had to get married. They made decisions in the US or UK to get married and built their lives based on what they believed would make them happy (another person, financial stability via another's efforts, etc.). Their biggest mistake is depending on others for their happiness. You are responsible for creating your happiness, you are responsible for your education, you are responsible for your earning potential/career (beyond pay gap, opportunity gap, pregnancy prejudice), and if your body is able you decide whether or not to have children. These are your choices, your responsibilities - if you can't raise a child without partner support you may want to reconsider being a parent as there is no guarantee that the partner you marry today will be the same person in 10/20/30/40yrs (or be alive or maybe you won't be alive to raise them - you rarely can predict tragedy). I'm not saying don't have children, I'm saying ensure prior to having kids that you can provide for them and access non-partner support sufficient for the health, safeguarding, and stability of the possible child(-

If you hate men because of your choices it has nothing to do with men, it has to do with choices you made that you dislike/hate. Giving men more power by making them the writers of your story is a great disservice to all women. Write your own story, enjoy sex (if you wish) monogamous or not, and forget about blaming yourself - just make better choices (picking the wrong partner is a choice you make even if you were misled).

Not only heteros get married (I'm Bi, could have entered into any number of commitment types or avoided monogamy altogether) and many of my married friends are lesbians (married to other female lesbians). How do you reconcile hetero "prostitute" marriage and homosexual marriage?

Reposted ^^

JessicaWakefieldSV · 25/07/2019 14:40

No no. Respond to what others have said. That’s what a discussion is, just repeating the same thoughts of your own is not a discussion. Are you here for one or just to stir?

deydododatdodontdeydo · 25/07/2019 14:43

Who needs patriarchy when you have toxic, hateful and disruptive elements within the feminist movement?
It makes you wonder whether certain members are deliberate plants to make us look foolish and crazed.

sakura184 · 25/07/2019 14:44

I can't be bothered JessicaWakefieldSV . Just because I can't be bothered doesn't mean I don't have a sound argument that marriage is prostitution.

I can't be bothered because you've berated and harangued me about not all men incessantly, and I don't even know why, or what for .

So if you're doing that you're not going to enter into a discussion about marriage being prostitution in good faith

sakura184 · 25/07/2019 14:46

I might start a thread about marriage being prostitution, so I can lay out my thoughts, and the theory, along with quotes from feminists I admire. I'm not doing it on this thread. I can't be arsed with the name calling

MaeWest1890 · 25/07/2019 14:52

Should I have clarified -

every man calls out racism - provided he himself (and / or all the men around him) were not racist!

But even if the man was not sexist himself, he still does not call out sexism.

Sorry!

JessicaWakefieldSV · 25/07/2019 14:55

Well that’s awfully convenient. I conclude you don’t have an argument of your own and have likely been doing more reading than you have listening to women and men in real life. I am sure most of whatever thread you start, if you do, will include quite a lot of quotes Grin it’s a shame you can’t engage using your own independent thoughts.

Sakura, the post I quoted above isn’t mine. You don’t have to engage with me, but you’ve engage with nobody really at all. It’s repeat repeat repeat.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 25/07/2019 14:58

But even if the man was not sexist himself, he still does not call out sexism.

More should, but plenty do. Are you a WOC? If not you should listen to those that are and have a better idea of what gets more support. Racism gets called out in mainstream media and by brands, more than sexism does. Much more. But in everyday life, I don’t think there’s much difference. My mum still gets a lot of racist crap and she works in a government department.

soapona · 25/07/2019 15:02

@JessicaWakefieldSV I still don't know if feminism has failed your mother? So your mother was young vulnerable and battered, over the years she eventually gained the strength to leave. This scenario still goes on worse still it's unmarried couples with no legal protection for the mother and paternal rights to the unmarried father when he turns up to sign the birth certificate. Pre 00 a man could sign the certificate and have no rights. What rights do women now have? This is still going on although we have some wonderful women who set up refuges to escape. Great awareness into abuse but I don't see that as the woman's lib movement. It's the woman lib who push for equality who I think make situation worse and then men cherry pick the bits they like while good submissive go along with it thinking it's progress.

OP posts:
JessicaWakefieldSV · 25/07/2019 15:05

She gained strength from other women firstly creating a place for women like her to go, and secondly from other women changing the conversation and casual acceptance. That’s feminism. Just because everything’s not perfect, does not mean it’s a failure. We’re not done are we. So why make any conclusion about feminism when women are still out there fighting.

Can I ask you OP, what are you doing? What does your own feminist advocacy look like?

MaeWest1890 · 25/07/2019 15:10

In UK???

Are you saying in 2019 in a UK Government Office there is same amount of Everyday Racism as there is Everyday Sexism?

Equally towards men and women or just women?

Apologies and very sorry for your mum.

Imnobody4 · 25/07/2019 15:12

Soapona
Do you think marriage is prostitution?

Imnobody4 · 25/07/2019 15:20

Sakura184
No one will discuss with me, you're all being mean. Several people give their views - you ignore. When challenged you refuse to engage because of meanness. Then threaten us with another thread where you can show how intellectually superior you are, and how you are right definitely, no discussion needed.

Just because I can't be bothered doesn't mean I don't have a sound argument that marriage is prostitution.
You have no arguments that are new or revelatory.

Goosefoot · 25/07/2019 15:23

But we aren't going to get anywhere if I say men have destroyed the world, turned it into a nuclear shit tip with frankenfoods and frankenseeds- which all happened on men's watch and someone pipes up with not all men. Like what does that argument even mean?

The problem with this isn't "notallmen" it's that actually its been all people.

The idea that woen have has no influence of advantage or control over how the "world is run" is just bs, no matter how many times people say patriarchy.
Women have been quite happy to be involved in environmental destruction, the drive a heck of a lot of consumption, and they do it for the same reason everyone does, they like it.

MaeWest1890 · 25/07/2019 15:45

Goose
"The idea that women have has no influence of advantage or control over how the "world is run" is just bs, no matter how many times people say patriarchy."

To my mind this is case of "path of least resistance".

Women have supported and helped run the world with very great effect - Thatcher. However, the stage is the Patriarchal Society.

In all countries, the women have not been the ones "setting the agenda".

Please give any real examples, if you do not agree.

soapona · 25/07/2019 15:49

@Imnobody4

Do you think marriage is prostitution

I see marriage as a legal process. I can see the argument why someone would say it's prostitution. I believe some men think they own you after marriage and like being a slave you take their name. I believe it can be seen as prostitution. It's a transaction after all. That's does not make it bad though some transactions work well for women.

OP posts:
soapona · 25/07/2019 15:52

@MaeWest1890 Would Maggie thatcher became prime minister without marry up?

OP posts:
Imnobody4 · 25/07/2019 15:57

soapona So what's the difference between marriage as prostitution and slavery?

ClosdesMouches · 25/07/2019 15:57

well I think the point of certain new posters to FWR is specifically to cause division and derail threads

Glad it isn't just me. I'm actually finding that certain threads are becoming unreadable because of this. I keep opening this one and trying to avoid certain posts.
I've always been against MN introducing a 'block' or 'ignore poster' function but right now I wish it had one.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 25/07/2019 16:11

I don’t understand why its marriage that’s prostitution

A good friend of mine has been with her partner for about the same amount of time as me and has children...she gave up work and went back very very part time when they were in school.

Everything nearly the same as me except for the piece of paper and wedding photos

So she is a prostitute as well yeah?

Or is it just the marriage certificate which went wrong for me?

Not that it actually matters Grin

StopThePlanet · 25/07/2019 16:11

sakura184

I can't be bothered JessicaWakefieldSV . Just because I can't be bothered doesn't mean I don't have a sound argument that marriage is prostitution.

Jessica was asking you to respond to me. Even against my better judgement I was kind to you albeit through a lens of no bullshit love because I see the pain in your posts. You sound like a more extreme version of me at 16/17... of which I see the error of my immature perspective.

Your lack of self-awareness will not help you work out the sins of your past, the past transgressions against you, and it will not help you build a strong and healthy relationship with your new girlfriend. Heed my words holding in anger and pain like you are is not healthy it will destroy you from the inside out. When you spend so much time hating other people it eventually converts into hate of yourself.

We have to take responsibility for our own choices (the freedom to make choices includes the responsibility owning those choices) - that's one of the many things feminism has given to those of us behind the blood sweat and tears of our foremothers. Choices and their responsibility are a gift from our foremothers - to shirk it is to spit in the face of feminism.

StopThePlanet · 25/07/2019 16:16

Sakura

You made a request of me to respond to your point about marriage equaling prostitution and I did once I addressed your rampant Dworkin quotations.

I gave sound insight into my long-term relationship in order to give a picture to my points, to illustrate why I believe that the marriage=prostitution assertion is incorrect.

Just simply saying that you believe marriage is prostitution is not engaging in a conversation and quoting another's words is not actually engaging in the conversation. I think I made it very clear that Dworkin's choices in marriage are of no interest to me as she does not have a clear perspective on what marriage is about. I'm interested in your response or your reasons why you believe marriage equals prostitution.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 25/07/2019 16:18

It's a transaction after all. You have a very, very old fashioned view of marriage.

These, in the Western world, days it is commonly accepted that it is an equal partnership... so if I am prostituting myself for DH then he is my very own gigolo.

You do know they removed the word 'obey' from the comon order of service?

sakura184 · 25/07/2019 16:18

I think soapona gave a good outline as to some of the reasons I think marriage is prostitution, and that was just off the top of her head

JessicaWakefieldSV · 25/07/2019 16:21

Use your own words. You’re constantly deflecting to others.

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