I'm not convinced that feminism has helped the women it should have?

[soapona]

I think on these discussion boards and on my Facebook I see women. They don't insist on marriage so they partner remains married to the ex for years and year, they live together and I wonder what will happen should the man die. I also see women with no security living with men with no intentions of marrying and having children. Women moving in with men too soon. In the days gone by women would and could have insisted on commitment. So now the position for women is worse hanging round waiting for a proposal.

I know they don't have to I'm fairly wealthy and a single parent so have choices and always have. I don't have a lot to gain from marriage.

I'm not sure things have got better for women we are expected to do a lot now two incomes are the usual for a mortgage instead of one in the olden days . So it's a given women work, do the most childcare do we honestly think these thing will change when the power imbalance is there from the beginning?

Also the women marrying "beneath themselves", that's not the correct term but a man earning less and not likely to come into a decent inheritance. What is the point in getting married there if you're a women? Perhaps if the woman is wealthy to avoid inheritance tax for her children but other than that I don't know?

So would woman not be happier marrying the same or above and insisting on marriage early on, like it was a given in days gone by?

Surely Women are now in very risky positions due to this living together in a man's property. I see much more domestic abuse these days. I believe the stats are much higher with non married couples. Surely living together unmarried has been caused by equality and feminism and the very people feminists has been trying to help they've hindered.

Love that you're getting so much support from the wims on here for your opinions LordRudolphVII

He isn’t. Nobody supported that comment to you. Do you often make things up? You keep doing it.

It's really very telling

What’s telling is you’ve responded first to the man making a joke, after you’ve made many many comments on several threads about men that are well beyond basic feminist theory and are as bad as sweeping statements about women being inferior, while not responding to the women who have in fact addressed your comments in detail. Very telling.

Love that you're getting so much support from the wims on here for your opinions LordRudolphVII.

It's really very telling.

Pot calling the refrigerator black?

Your opinions don't seem to be too popular either, and you genuinely seem to believe them (or are an extremely good contrarian).

If my somewhat insensitive attempt at humour has offended anybody aside from Sakura then I do genuinely apologise.

Yes, I would in the same manner that I don't find Sakura's assertions about men particularly humorous (especially as they're not meant ironically).*m

I don't find Gonzo porn particularly humorous. Not that I've watched it, but Am I supposed to find it humorous? Are feminists here to entertain men, or even make feminism palatable to men? Every man I've ever come across has loathed feminism with a passion.

And it's because men loathe feminism that some women say oh no my feminism is nice feminism, my feminism isn't man hating, you'd like my feminism because it's reasonable: not realizing that men hate all feminism, all of it.

I don’t believe it is realistic that women (or indeed men) can enter into relationships and have children without becoming dependent on each other. Very few people can raise children and hold down a job without support from other people. And yes, there are plenty of single parents manage it, but getting out of an abusive relationship is incredibly difficult, because you are attempting to get out of an interdependent relationship while the other person seeks to prevent you doing so.

I mean that it is not realistic that people live as if they were a single parent while in a relationship.

Are feminists here to entertain men, or even make feminism palatable to men? Every man I've ever come across has loathed feminism with a passion.

What the fuck are you ranting about now? Totally irrelevant to his remark on your digesting hatred spouted all over these boards. I feel sorry for you. I do. You’ve gone so far beyond feminism and you lack the self awareness to see it.

Not all men loath feminism. A lot. Not all. That’s the problem with your statements, you insist that it is absolutely all men. When others talk in terms like ‘men’ we don’t specify all. We still get accused of meaning that, probably because of people like you who actually do.

Feminism isn’t meant to be nice. But it’s also not meant to be hateful. Which you are.

I’d love to see you respond to StopThePlanet but I’m not holding my breathe. Conversation which involves responding to the actual words someone is using, doesn’t appear to be your thing.

Every man I've ever come across has loathed feminism with a passion.

You'd have to define 'feminism' first to make sweeping statements like this. As can be seen from this thread feminists don't even agree as to what feminism is so why would men?

Back in the real world the men of my acquaintance seem quite happy with 'equal pay for equal work' and for women to own property, vote, be allowed to pursue whatever careers they wish. There may be some grumbling around some issues but there is from women too, eg reproductive rights.

Feminism does not need to be palatable to men, or indeed women as a whole, you are free to argue your corner regardless of whether it is palatable to others. But, bottom line is that most women like men. That isn't to say most women haven't had bad experiences of some men, or don't recognise that men as a class are potentially dangerous to women as a class, but you will never get people on side with extreme arguments (eg marriage is prostitution) because they just don't work for most people.

I tell a lie. There has been one man who has contributed to feminism. He wrote an article about 13 years ago. His name is Richard Leader.
There you go. Can't accuse me of saying all men.
Here is his article. It's called "Misandry: the dictionary of fools"

http://adonismirror.com/pdf/10152006leaderrmisandryanddmisanthropy.pdf

ArnoldWhatshisknickers

What I mean is, you might think you can avoid men's wrath by being a little bit of a manhater feminist, but not too much of a feminist, that sort of thing. As long as you don't go all the way (as I clearly have , even though I know plenty of women who have gone further than me) the you'll be safe, liked. And even a few enlightened men will be able to agree with your feminism.

It gets a bit tricky when you criticize their porn. They really don't like that one. You'll lose a few male supporters if you go there. And on it goes.

It gets a bit tricky when you criticize their porn. They really don't like that one. You'll lose a few male supporters if you go there. And on it goes.

That’s very different from what you’re doing. You don’t find many defenders of porn here, it’s regularly discussed and in general very few who frequents these boards would support it.

And on it goes to where? Making blatant statements that all marriage is prostitution, you’re guaranteed to get raped if you go out etc is not feminism, it just isn’t. It’s hyperbole, extreme and not true.

I’d again, love to see you respond to those who have given long responses to some of your comments, responses you previously asked for and are now ignoring.

As long as you don't go all the way

What does that mean, exactly? Be specific. So if we don’t think all men are rapists and all marriage is prostitution, we aren’t doing all the way with feminism? Is that what you’re saying? What is your motivation here exactly?

From his article:

Criticism from women is somehow more dangerous than a male- created nuclear holocaust: evidently only men have the right to drive us onward to our extinction.

While men have long enjoyed attacking ungrateful women as “man haters,” the epithet seems more than a little bit silly when transposed onto the printed page, something demanded by the burgeoning market for so-called Men’s Studies materials. It certainly lacks the gravitas required to reflect the widespread injury and social disadvantages that many white males believe they endure on a daily basis. Thus a more scientific-sounding term was needed for “the hatred of men” and antifeminists crafted one out of their own perverted imagination of antiquity: misandry.

Use your own words to respond to those who have taken the time to respond to you. Or can’t you do that?

“That’s very different from what you’re doing. You don’t find many defenders of porn here, it’s regularly discussed and in general very few who frequents these boards would support it.“

That is simply not true.
Mumsnet is amazingly pro porn! To the extent that somebody like me, who is with Bindel on this topic, sometimes avoids a thread about porn because it’s too depressing to see all the women either not caring about or not believing in the exploitation of women in the industry, not caring or not believing in the damage it does to individuals and society and only caring about whether or not it counts as “cheating” if their male partner watches it.

sakura

I don't seek to avoid men's wrath or be liked. Nor do I seek, or particularly reject, the label 'feminist'.

I'm a pragmatist. I seek solutions to problems.

If the problem is porn, and I agree it is a problem then I seek to find practical solutions to that problem.

I am happy to discuss what those solutions might look like, but I will always feel the need to ask 'how do we get people on board with the proposed solution'? Because if we don't get people on board it simply won't work and we will have achieved nothing of worth.

That is why I find your more extreme views unhelpful, while absolutely defending your right to hold and express them.

BertrandRussell not on this board, FWR, which is what I specified above.

Ah. You said “these boards”, which confused me.

A good way to avoid being held accountable for your own words, and have to engage in a discussion about them, is both to just quote others, and simply dismiss criticism as a criticism against feminism itself and therefore use that as a shield... ‘ I can say whatever I want and call it feminism and respond to any and all criticism as par for the course for feminists...’ even if you aren’t actually basing your words in feminism- the liberation of women, not hatred of men FYI.

Sorry Bert

I'm really enjoying reading this interesting thread and plan to read "Right Wing Woman. By Andrea Dworkin. It is a much more fascinating subject than I first thought.

One of the things that I very much dislike about postmodernism and queer theory is that whenever you question it, someone will say that you don’t really understand it, and if you go away and read Latour or Butler or whoever it will all make sense.

It seems as if we’re getting into the same situation here. We should be able to explain our perspectives on here clearly and simply.