I'm not convinced that feminism has helped the women it should have?

[soapona]

I think on these discussion boards and on my Facebook I see women. They don't insist on marriage so they partner remains married to the ex for years and year, they live together and I wonder what will happen should the man die. I also see women with no security living with men with no intentions of marrying and having children. Women moving in with men too soon. In the days gone by women would and could have insisted on commitment. So now the position for women is worse hanging round waiting for a proposal.

I know they don't have to I'm fairly wealthy and a single parent so have choices and always have. I don't have a lot to gain from marriage.

I'm not sure things have got better for women we are expected to do a lot now two incomes are the usual for a mortgage instead of one in the olden days . So it's a given women work, do the most childcare do we honestly think these thing will change when the power imbalance is there from the beginning?

Also the women marrying "beneath themselves", that's not the correct term but a man earning less and not likely to come into a decent inheritance. What is the point in getting married there if you're a women? Perhaps if the woman is wealthy to avoid inheritance tax for her children but other than that I don't know?

So would woman not be happier marrying the same or above and insisting on marriage early on, like it was a given in days gone by?

Surely Women are now in very risky positions due to this living together in a man's property. I see much more domestic abuse these days. I believe the stats are much higher with non married couples. Surely living together unmarried has been caused by equality and feminism and the very people feminists has been trying to help they've hindered.

Omfg, putting Mein Kampf in a discussion about Dworkin!

That's literally what the trans do. Call me a Nazi Terf.

Also, who am I discrediting the women's movement in front of? Isn't trying to make feminism palatable to men and misogynistic women the reason we ended up with all that neoliberal shit passing itself off as feminism. To please the men masses

Sakura184
I have endured almost incessant personal attacks of varying degrees so that I can't even get to first base on trying to discuss anything. I would love a decent discussion about why marriage is prostitution.
I find your insistence that you are entitled to determine what this thread discusses very frustrating. If you want to discuss then its 'if' not 'why' marriage is prostitution. There is another thread specifically on Right Wing Women and you are on it. If I wanted to discuss the finer details of Dworkin's hypothesis i would be on that thread too.

Also, isn't comparing Dworkin's RWW to Mein Kampf suggesting that she was the one to theorize marriage was prostitution, when I've already pointed out that she didn't invent this theory. She just used it in one of her books, a book that happens to be being discussed on mumsnet right now, which is why I keep referring to that one, as opposed to a different one.

That's literally what the trans do. Call me a Nazi Terf

I didn't call you that. Stop making things up. I gave you examples of 3 , in my view, unreadable, extremist books. I'm sure in the case of 2 of them someone on here might defend them. Reading them will not change my mind about the ideology in any of them.

Imnobody4

The discussion is: has feminism failed women and if so, how and why. And she begins by talking about women who don't marry.

My discussion about marriage is totally relevant. I refer to right wing women because that is a very kind book. It shows how precisely feminism has failed women and it also shows why some women refuse to be feminists- why they don't want abortion rights, and why they want to keep marriage

My discussion about marriage is totally relevant. I refer to right wing women because that is a very kind book. It shows how precisely feminism has failed women and it also shows why some women refuse to be feminists- why they don't want abortion rights, and why they want to keep marriage
I'm sorry Sakura184 but I just don't find the marriage is prostitution a convincing or useful argument. Feminism is in danger of being an alternative straight jacket when you use absolutist statements like that. Op, who seems to have disappeared seems to belong more to the category of right wing women, seeing sex as something you trade for marriage. I don't think feminism has failed women, feminism is about giving women independence and choices. It's the trade off between freedom and security, between the individual and social norms and institutions. And much as it may appall you I think men are part of the equation.

I don't think feminism has failed women, feminism is about giving women independence and choices.

Definitely. Individuality.

However there is work to be done in this area. As not everyone feels their choices and individuality is supported by feminism. So it has failed some women. Which is why it is good to have those discussions..

Sakura

Like you couldn't just have addressed my post about why Dworkin got married, or addressed my argument that marriage is prostitution?

Look, if someone makes a claim about how I communicate I pay attention and examine how I communicated to give that perception (or if it was totally off-base).

I was being genuine but that's cool. You are obviously unhappy with your choices (clearly stated across threads) and you are pleased to call yourself a misandrist and manhater. That sounds seriously unbalanced IMO. Men are necessary parts of the human race. You have a right to your thoughts and as PP pointed out (and you agreed) they have a right to theirs. Extremism is never a good thing i.e. women that hate men and men that hate women are a dangerous sort... both groups are short-sighted and wrong. But women who hate men are in more danger from their views than their counterparts because women don't hold the keys to the kingdom.

IDGAF why Dworkin does anything - I'm not a fan. I agree with some of what she says but I also disagree with a lot she says. She appears to have no idea what a healthy romantic relationship looks like and seemingly neither do you. That is an observation based on what she has written and what you have written.

Your posts are not indicative of radfem views IMO.

Your words are like a parody of radical feminism that closely aligns with how many uneducated about feminism (prior to PoMo) perceive radical feminism.

If you can't handle criticism based on your words maybe go talk about your female superiority somewhere in an echo chamber. Stating how you come across is not an attack, it is how I perceive you based on YOUR WORDS. I don't attack people - I am a no bullshit kind of friend. When a friend calls me and says things in the vein you've said I push them to see beyond their anger (often bitterness due to not acknowledging their own decisions or role in a situation) to look for solutions. There is a good reason my friendships are long and delve deep into difficult realms - it takes great love to speak the truth when it would be easier to placate. Take it as you will.

Why do you care that I find your words to be bitter (unless it strikes a nerve)? Perhaps you should think about that. You are still your 30s and have a very very very long time to live and perceiving the world how you do will not do you any justice (I've seen the outcome of your perceptions long-term - it is a painful existence and I don't wish that for you). I hope for you that you find peace in your existence and find a way to support feminism without making extremist statements (that damage the outside perception of all feminists).

Some of the fantastic minds here belong to women that helped pave the way for me (and you) as did my grandma and mom. Hating men today will not bring justice to the girls behind us - we owe the women before us to safeguard the girls behind us. Hating men will just make the erasure of us easier, if today's politics aren't clear enough - some of them will take great leaps to deny us our language and spaces that women before us fought so hard to protect/gain.

Brilliant post, StopThePlanet

Thanks StrangeLookingParasite

Also, I dig your handle

Sakura

I'm finished pushing you after that last post. You will gain from my effort of communication or not - that's on you.

As per your request I addressed Dworkin's marriage in my last post (IDGAF) and in an effort to engage you on the marriage=prostitution standpoint please read below. Thanks in advance for reading my verbose response as I have read pages and pages and pages of your thoughts (I read entire threads to gain perspective to ensure I see the whole picture).

Marriage is prostitution... well that is an ill-conceived perspective. The idea that anyone would continuously have sex that wasn't enjoyable for them is mind blowing to me - whether in a relationship, single, or prostitute (hate the term). I wouldn't do it - I wouldn't sell my existence for a house, a car, or for all of the money (or insert whatever) in the world. (I was homeless at 16 and a survivor - there is always another solution beyond fucking your way to comfort - unless trafficked of course).

I don't need anything from DH but as I stated previously his presence enriches my life (in many ways), and I quite like having a partner with which I can communicate without words. We read each other's cues and respect boundaries as not doing so would be a deal breaker i.e. transgressions require discussion, reflection, and closing discussion. We love each other deeply, we laugh heartily, and sometimes cry in happiness as well as sadness - we hold each for no reason and for all the reasons.

Having a healthy marriage can mean different things to different people depending on their needs/desires. Because I've never looked to a partner (male or female) to fulfill my needs I see the assertion of marriage=prostitution as seeking to diminish mature partnership in order to discredit those of us that create our happiness and enjoy sharing our lives with a partner not based on need. There is no exploitation here, there is no need to stay, but there is a partnered commitment to being happy as individuals and enriching life for each other (and our 'team' - four of us if you count the dogs).

Asserting this ridiculous claim that marriage=prostitution is seriously incompetent, ill-informed, and emotionally unintelligent. Dworkin doesn't have a clue in this regard (as evidenced by her writings), and quoting her writings like they are a bible of sorts isn't doing you any favors.

I have known/do know many women (some family, some acquaintances, some friends) that feel men and marriage are responsible for their stations in life. None of them were forced into their marriages or got pregnant and felt they had to get married. They made decisions in the US or UK to get married and built their lives based on what they believed would make them happy (another person, financial stability via another's efforts, etc.). Their biggest mistake is depending on others for their happiness. You are responsible for creating your happiness, you are responsible for your education, you are responsible for your earning potential/career (beyond pay gap, opportunity gap, pregnancy prejudice), and if your body is able you decide whether or not to have children. These are your choices, your responsibilities - if you can't raise a child without partner support you may want to reconsider being a parent as there is no guarantee that the partner you marry today will be the same person in 10/20/30/40yrs (or be alive or maybe you won't be alive to raise them - you rarely can predict tragedy). I'm not saying don't have children, I'm saying ensure prior to having kids that you can provide for them and access non-partner support sufficient for the health, safeguarding, and stability of the possible child(-ren).

If you hate men because of your choices it has nothing to do with men, it has to do with choices you made that you dislike/hate. Giving men more power by making them the writers of your story is a great disservice to all women. Write your own story, enjoy sex (if you wish) monogamous or not, and forget about blaming yourself - just make better choices (picking the wrong partner is a choice you make even if you were misled).

Not only heteros get married (I'm Bi, could have entered into any number of commitment types or avoided monogamy altogether) and many of my married friends are lesbians (married to other female lesbians). How do you reconcile hetero "prostitute" marriage and homosexual marriage?

(My views in this respect do not encompass forced marriage, rape in marriage, or anything without consent).

StopThePlanet

Your last two posts were just spot on :)

Sakura, I think you would benefit from finding a good man. He might change your mind about us.

“Sakura, I think you would benefit from finding a good man. He might change your mind about us.”

Why? This is something else people have been saying to feminists for generations.

@StopThePlanet, excellent posts!

Yes. Stoptheplanet. Last two posts.

(Dons flame retardant suit)

I know, Bertrand. I was being a knob/ironic.

I quite like having a partner with which I can communicate without words. We read each other's cues and respect boundaries as not doing so would be a deal breaker i.e. transgressions require discussion, reflection, and closing discussion. We love each other deeply, we laugh heartily, and sometimes cry in happiness as well as sadness - we hold each for no reason and for all the reasons.

This resonates with me. My DH & I both had pretty difficult childhoods, parents that abused/neglected/abandoned us. We met young and have been best friends ever since. I’ve had long term illness and my DH cares for me, works full time and comes home to do everything else a lot of the time. I’ve never been left with the feeling this is the slightest problem for him, that’s what love is. The idea that all marriages are prostitution, is an insult whether it’s intended to be or not. I’ve read the arguments for it and they don’t add up or make logical sense to me. Blanket statements like that just don’t seem sensible or reasonable whatsoever. I’ve read Dworkins work on pornography and I like it. This particular thought on marriage, I think comes from her own experiences which were pretty bloody awful.

“I know, Bertrand. I was being a knob/ironic.“

Yeah well. You’ll forgive women for losing their sense of humour about this crap......

Completely agree stoptheplanet. I’m not a fan of the institution of marriage, however, women that are disadvantaged by it do need to take responsibility for their own actions and choices. And I completely agree that relationships should be a nice bonus, not a necessity

Yeah well. You’ll forgive women for losing their sense of humour about this crap......

Yes, I would in the same manner that I don't find Sakura's assertions about men particularly humorous (especially as they're not meant ironically).

You could rise above it though.

Sakura, I think you would benefit from finding a good man. He might change your mind about us

Love that you're getting so much support from the wims on here for your opinions LordRudolphVII

It's really very telling

Haven't found the right man. Yep that must be it. I'm one of the women not clever enough to find a good one. And this is the type of "feminist analysis" supported by the women on here:

Anyway I've got a girlfriend now and she's amazing. Maybe instead of advising women to find the right man maybe men should shape up or they might find their wives leaving them for women en masse like they did in the seventies.