Why the sudden hostility to anti-vaxxers? (Not here, I mean in the culture at large...)

[Rocaille]

Sorry, this will be garbled: I'm thinking aloud. First of all, I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I don't think I've ever refused a vaccination, either for myself or DD. But in the last year or so, I've noticed a sudden ramping up of hostility towards people who choose not to vaccinate their children, not necessarily on Mumsnet, but certainly in the culture at large. Even the term 'anti-vaxxer' is a new coinage, I think.

I'm posting to find out, has anyone else noticed this, and if so, what do you make of it?

For me, it's reminiscent of the way that, some years back, the trans agenda appeared suddenly at the forefront of public discourse. In my tinfoil-hat-donning moments, I wonder who decides what issues we debate, when we debate them and to what end. Why now for anti-vax? I suppose there have been some serious measles epidemics in recent years, but that doesn't seem to account for the heat and urgency of debate, or the way anti-vaxxers are being characterised as a certain type of person.

Another thing that makes me associate pro-vax with the trans agenda is that it's potentially about the compulsory medical treatment of children, and removing the parent (mother) as the final arbiter of what can and cannot be done to her child's body. That's where I see pro-vax going.

Could this be another dimension of the same agenda, or have I completely lost the plot?

Yes, Prawn, I agree I didn't give regard to the different evidence bases for vaccination vs. medical transition. They are worlds apart.

I think part of the issue is that, in the West at least, vaccination has been so successful that few people have ever seen a case of polio or measles, so have no idea of the severity of these diseases.

Yup. That and what arran said upthread

Many of these children who were damaged by measles weren't visible because they were absent - or their special needs mean that they were taken out of mainstream education (which often meant being sent to a residential school).

By 'absent' I assume she means 'dead'. The lucky ones who escaped with just being ill (I was quite poorly with measles and whooping cough, others not so bad) were unaware of the missing children. I did have a friend who was profoundly deaf and injured in other ways by maternal rubella. I knew another girl just a few years older than me who wore a neck brace for a long time because of polio (I suppose she escaped relatively lightly). I was lucky enough to get the sugar lump instead.

I think if people choose to not to get their kids vaccinated then social ostracism is well and truly a valid approach. The fact we’ve sleptwalked into this post-modernist hellscape, and now every point of view is as valid as any other is quite frankly ridiculous.

I suppose the problem is that we’ve begun to lose social immunity to batshit ideas as people are more told what to think and not how to think. Shifting public opinion nowadays if far more about emotional manipulation than logic and rationality.

I would happily support unvaccinated (against medical advice) children being excluded from childcare and schools

I can see there are arguments against this. But should vaccination status be registered and parents of immunocompromised children (come to think, also immunocompromised adults) be made aware so they could take precautions? Could schools try to organise classes so that the vulnerable kid is in a safer 'herd'?

I can see objections to those ideas too but I'm not sure the antivaxxers can have it all ways. Their liberty means greater eternal vigilance on behalf of the vulnerable.

Anti-vaxxers put their kids and their own kids at risk on the basis of superstition.

And even though the link to autism has been thoroughly debunked as fraudulent, they still ride the wave of prejudice against autistics.

From my perspective when my eldest daughter was born 14 years ago, the anti-vax viewpoint was at a kind of high point. Not that most people did it, but in certain crunchy circles, or among attachment parenting followers, it was very common. There was a real sense of moral superiority, and there seemed to be a lot more questions around the health issues being debated. The Wakefield studies were still widely seen as useful.

Support has dropped off since then but I agree, it's within the last year that it seems to have turned around into a real hate against anti-vaxination. I think the general drop happened as the research was less and less convincing, but it's been the increase in outbreaks that may have turned the tide.

Although - I have also seen a big change in the parenting of young kids, particularly by mothers. When my older kids were born, "natural" parenting was big. BF on demand and into toddlerhood, not big on scheduling in general, feeding kids real foods not purees, baby-wearing, and so on. Lots of anxiety though. This was middle class mums.

The mums I see now are still anxious still, but they seem to use aps to record everything their baby does and have a schedule, and they are far more interested in technology, and far more likely to embrace conventional recommendations by doctors or any other authorities. Including around vaccination. So it may be that this change also plays a part.

That's interesting, Goosefoot. I wonder what's causing the change you describe?

Ps. The 'moral superiority' you observed sounds absolutely horrible!!

I am 40 and knew of anti-vaxxers when I was a child.

I have always thought anti-vaxxers were selfish and irresponsible, and relying on junk science even before the junk science was proven to be junk science. I can’t stand seeing people say things like “I will let my child get chicken pox naturally”. Oh, like I and my siblings did pre-chicken pox vaccination? It was horrible. And we were lucky not to have permanent damage some children get. My mother would have loved a vaccine for us! Now I am counting down time until I can get the shingles vaccine because yes, unlike the vaccine, getting chicken pox puts you at risk of that as you age or your immune system is compromised - like my late mother who got shingles during chemo.

One of my friends who is in her mid 30s had anti-vaxxer parents and she did not vaccinate until she was an adult. Not before she got tetanus though!

A boyfriend of mine in high school also had anti-vaxxer parents and he got mumps putting him at risk of infertility.

Why is it maybe more apparent now maybe? Because we are seeing wide outbreaks of measles, babies and other immune-compromised people suffering with pertussis, and so on. Diseases that had become very rare to see because of vaccinations and herd immunity.

All diseases that are not just an “inconvenience” but ones that can have devastating permanent lifelong consequences or even death.

Anti-vaxxers don’t just put themselves and their children at risk, they put babies at risk, they put people who can’t get vaccines at risk, they put cancer patients at risk and on and on. That is where the hostility comes from.

Some people can’t be vaccinated. And they should not be. But I don’t see the issue with mandatory vaccination for those who don’t fall into that. Many preschools, daycares, schools now require it and are even removing the “religious exemption”. There are doctors who require their patients to be vaccinated because otherwise those patients can threaten other patients in waiting rooms, etc. Is this compulsory? If you want to interact with the world then yes, I suppose it is. And I support it.

Anti-vaxxers put their kids and their own kids at risk on the basis of superstition.

People need to stop saying this!! Vaccine damage does happen! The MMR-autism BS is not the only reason people choose not to vaccinate. If you won’t even accept vaccine damage as a real thing, then you’re no better than those who think all vaccines are bad/dangerous to everyone.

Currently in complete barrier-nursing isolation with my 7 year old DD who has a rare autoimmune condition. It’s our 5th hospital stay in 10 months and she has a string of Beads of Courage that is longer than her dad is tall.

I have massive sympathy with parents whose children have become ill post-vaccination, of course I do, I’m a full time ‘hospital mum’ (haven’t been able to work since DD’s diagnosis) and I wouldn’t wish this life on anyone, but without herd immunity/mass vaccination my daughter wouldn’t be able to leave the house/hospital at all.

My daughter has all her vaccinations, but her condition (haemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis) is treated by suppressing her own immune system to stop it from attacking her.

We’re blessed with a fantastic, world leading haematology/oncology consultant and an equally knowledgeable Immunology consultant (and the NHS!) so I very much agree that this debate should be taking place between experts, not angry lay people on the internet.

Now, who has tips for distracting a stir crazy 7 year old? We’ e already done 3 jigsaws this morning 😬

Ta Errol! Wonderful part of the world!

I think part of the problem is that some antivaxxers are obnoxious cretins. They post scare storied about vaccines containing aborted fetal parts, numerous poisons and tell us who vax that we are just too stupid and brainwashed by big pharma and the medical profession to see what is going on.

They also claim the fact their kids are healthy, breastfed, take vitamins mean they are strong enough to fight any infection, I saw a post lately on a pro vax page I am on where they screenshotted a mother wanting to get her kids exposed to measles to get natural immunity.

The pro vax can be obnoxious too though, saying things like antivaxxers would rather have a dead child than one with autism, making them offensive to disabled people. Of course the antivaxers don't believe their child will die.

Look at the first case of Tetanus in the USA for a long time, an unvaxed child. Luckily we don't have the level of paranoia here that they do in the USA over government and Drs but we need to make sure we don't end up there.

child with tetanus

And, yes, younger generations have never seen the damage these diseases cause. I am in my 40s and had a neighbour who walked with calipers because of polio. I also had measles and it was nasty with the Dr needing to be called and the worry of further complications.

The Wakefield studies were still widely seen as useful.

My DD is 20, it was quite clear even then that they were dangerous nonsense. Clear to scientists, anyway.

Isakura184*

Just hearsay, but in Japan people give their kids the flue vaccine every winter. I never bothered. Then my friend who vaccinated said that one winter after vaccinating her son, he got 3 different types of flue, on after the other. She stopped the flue vaccine after that

Oh are we playing anecdotes? I have had the flu vaccine every year for the past 24 years due to exposure to immune compromised people or work and never got the flu.

It’s not just a get it one year and never again thing. The flu virus mutates dramatically year to year. It is also an educated guess as to what strain may spread so some years the vaccine is less effective than others. This does not make it “useless”. There may be some ongoing benefits that vaccinated people can still fight off other strain variants to a degree (or lessen effects of flu at least)

Bad luck for your friends son he for three strains of flu though; was he traveling around a lot? Usually only one or two strains tend to be prominent in any given area.

I vaccinated my kids during the anti-vaccine moral superiority phase, but I do think something is going on.

I’m on Tumblr, in parts where people don’t ever really mention anything to do with bringing up kids or related topics. And yet these vitriolic posts loathing anti-vaxxers keep coming up.

It is strange and disturbing.

If feminism on mumsnet is now anti trans and anti vacc, it’s time to start thinking “are we the baddies”. Seriously.

It seems as though in the US, pro-vax/anti-vax has become another front in the culture wars, which can only be destructive. Perhaps my OP was doing something similar, trying to align very different, very complex issues. I've really appreciated this thread as it's challenged some of my intuitions which weren't necessarily that well thought out.

DuMonde, best wishes to you and your very brave little girl.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6137759/

Russian online trolls and bots are potentially pretending to be both anti and pro vaccine, with the aim of whipping up discord.

Yes, Endofthedays, that's the sort of thing I was getting at! There's something about it which feels a bit off.

Interesting link, DuMonde. Well that's one explanation as to why now, and why the vehemance.

My tinfoil hat wasn't completely unwarranted then!?

If feminism on mumsnet is now anti trans and anti vacc, it’s time to start thinking “are we the baddies”. Seriously.

Fortunately it isn't.

Most regulars are pro women and pro evidence, IME.