Why the sudden hostility to anti-vaxxers? (Not here, I mean in the culture at large...)

[Rocaille]

Sorry, this will be garbled: I'm thinking aloud. First of all, I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I don't think I've ever refused a vaccination, either for myself or DD. But in the last year or so, I've noticed a sudden ramping up of hostility towards people who choose not to vaccinate their children, not necessarily on Mumsnet, but certainly in the culture at large. Even the term 'anti-vaxxer' is a new coinage, I think.

I'm posting to find out, has anyone else noticed this, and if so, what do you make of it?

For me, it's reminiscent of the way that, some years back, the trans agenda appeared suddenly at the forefront of public discourse. In my tinfoil-hat-donning moments, I wonder who decides what issues we debate, when we debate them and to what end. Why now for anti-vax? I suppose there have been some serious measles epidemics in recent years, but that doesn't seem to account for the heat and urgency of debate, or the way anti-vaxxers are being characterised as a certain type of person.

Another thing that makes me associate pro-vax with the trans agenda is that it's potentially about the compulsory medical treatment of children, and removing the parent (mother) as the final arbiter of what can and cannot be done to her child's body. That's where I see pro-vax going.

Could this be another dimension of the same agenda, or have I completely lost the plot?

Not all strains of meningitis are vaccinated against anyway though, and even those that are haven’t been available very long on the standard schedule?

Just hearsay, but in Japan people give their kids the flue vaccine every winter. I never bothered. Then my friend who vaccinated said that one winter after vaccinating her son, he got 3 different types of flue, on after the other. She stopped the flue vaccine after that

Because their choices are putting other people at risk. It’s selfish.

In my head at least I put people who don’t vaccinate their kids in the same category as people who use mobile phones when driving.

I think part of the problem is that the current generation of parents has probably never seen cases of the diseases that vaccines prevent - because vaccines are so spectacularly effective at prevention!
I’m a retired doctor, and old enough to remember seeing people hobbling with callipers on shrunken, partly paralysed legs from polio. I’ve seen patients inside “iron lung” machines, unable to breathe unaided, again due to polio. I’ve seen a special needs toddler, blind deaf and with profoundly limited IQ, because his mother had Rubella while pregnant. I’ve seen patients who’ve suffered deafness and brain damage after measles, and parents who’ve lost much loved children to meningitis.
I never want to see these bloody things again! For the love of God, get your damn kids vaccinated.

Just hearsay, but in Japan people give their kids the flue vaccine every winter. I never bothered. Then my friend who vaccinated said that one winter after vaccinating her son, he got 3 different types of flue, on after the other. She stopped the flue vaccine after that

Exactly what point are you failing to make here?

I've vaxxed my kids but I've noticed a horrible social bullying around anti-vaxxers.

What I've noticed is nobody is asking them what their concerns are, nobody is listening. It's just pro-vax people absolutely gunning them down aggressively - that's the trend I see. And an attitude of 'oh THIS again'.

I also see parents having to campaign for support when their child IS one of the few with serious and adverse reactions. Reactions DO happen - they happen with all drugs. I hate to see them lashed out at so much.

I find using the argument ‘you put other people at risk’ akin to anti abortionists saying ‘you’re taking a life’. If you believe in bodily autonomy, using the argument of other people’s health being more important, doesn’t make sense and it won’t convince people. Especially people who already have vaccine damaged children.

I'm really not sure why you've posted this on this board OP. Is it because the TRAs stupidly suggest that we're all anti vaxxers on here the same way they try to make out we're all right wing because they have no idea who we are or what we're about?

Readytogogogo

My point was the flue vaccine, which already seemed pointless to me, was proven to be even more pointless when a friend's son went down with three different kinds of flue in a row after having it

Babdoc

Have you seen vaccine damaged children? For a parent who has, they are often left feeling it’s absolutely their fault because they actively put that in their children. Its different from catching a disease isn’t it. So again, I don’t think your point works for those parents who are fearful of the damage from vaccines, which is low risk but still real.

A few years ago, I had a colleague whose son died of Measles.
At the moment we are seeing an increase in Mumps and Measles in the Uni populations- interesting that some of these were likely to be young people who were either given imported single vaccines at great expense or not vaccinated due to the Wakefield debacle. At the time there was a suggestion that some brands of imported vaccines were only 50% effective at best.
What is happening is that as the level of vaccination drops , herd immunity is dropping so very young children and the immunocompromised are a higher risk. That's why the anti-vaxxers ( or pro-disease lobby) are becoming such a problem.
The trouble is that people "doing their research" are often looking at random posts on line and believing everything they read is true. There is often no way of being able to evaluate the studies or check the poster. It can be difficult- my job was evaluating the evidence about medicines and the amount of opinion rather than evidence about vaccines on line is massive.

It's not bodily autonomy to risk the lives of other people's children.

He’s an amazing author, not a doctor.

Dahl was instrumental in the design of a hydrocephalus shunt with an engineer and neurosurgeon - a usefully creative mind with good connections. (Dahl's son was hit by a car and suffered a brain injury.)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wade-Dahl-Till_valve

It's not bodily autonomy to risk the lives of other people's children.

Do you accept vaccine damage exists? Or not?
So, anti abortionists would say it’s not bodily autonomy to end the life of a child. Ultimately, bodily autonomy is about the individual. So you need a better angle than, ‘you’re risking others health’. Even in 100% vaccinated areas they get outbreaks from foreign visitors etc so herd immunity is extremely difficult to achieve.

@sakura184.

Maybe do some reading on the flu vaccine then? The flu virus is constantly mutating and therefore the vaccine changes each year, as a 'best guess' of what strains are most likely to be prevalent that year. It is never going to prevent all cases of flu, but the aim is to try to reduce cases and deaths overall.

This is an entirely different aim than the MMR vaccine, for instance, which offers protection from those diseases. If all were compliant with vaccinations then measles etc would be eliminated.

Re: the flu vaccine... I'm a chronic disease sufferer so am offered it each year. Last time I had it, I was advised by the nurse administering it that it was scientifically impossible that I would experience any side effects. Immediately had a very bad flare up of chronic disease, which I put down to coincidence, until I was reading a book by an eminent doctor in which he mentioned 'immunisation flu', the set of (usually quite mild) symptoms that are commonly experienced after a vaccination. He said previously everybody in the profession knew they existed, but weren't sure how to account for them. Nowadays it's thought they're down to the body's inflammatory response.

Now I'm not sure what to think. I sense I was given a siimplified description of the vaccination so as not to worry me. In the long term this kind of 'it's for your own good' attitude will only undermine public trust in vaccinations.

In the long term this kind of 'it's for your own good' attitude will only undermine public trust in vaccinations.

They tend not to like divulging every little thing to the public because it creates mass fear etc but I agree with you. I’d like to be treated like an adult, and be given all the correct accurate information.

I'm really not sure why you've posted this on this board OP. Is it because the TRAs stupidly suggest that we're all anti vaxxers on here

No, I wasn't aware that's what TRAs say. My post was sincere, not an attempt at sabotage.

... the discussion has evolved in a way that's not really relevant to FWR though. Don't mind at all if MNHQ want to move it elsewhere.

I haven't read any vaccination threads anywhere for a few years. Partly because my kids are past that stage and partly because they all end in both sides accusing the other of killing and harming babies.

I find it a little uncomfortable that we are telling new mothers that they must vaccinate their tiny baby against all these horrible diseases otherwise their baby might die... but oh your baby has a cold? Oh no we can't do that then, come back in a few weeks.

Have a question about the potential side effects of a vaccine? Oh you're just an idiot who thinks that vaccines cause autism.

Anyway, I hadn't spotted that t**fs are anti-vaxxers now. It's hard to keep up. Seeing as my kids are vaccinated, do I need to hand in my membership card now?

Another thing that makes me associate pro-vax with the trans agenda is that it's potentially about the compulsory medical treatment of children, and removing the parent (mother) as the final arbiter of what can and cannot be done to her child's body.

There's no comparison. All the medical evidence supports vaccination. There is no evidence that medical transition is beneficial for gender questioning or dysphoric children. A professor of evidence based medicine said in The Times: “Given paucity of evidence, the off-label use of drugs [for outcomes not covered by the medicine’s licence] in gender dysphoria treatment largely means an unregulated live experiment on children.”

The Times also reported: The only NHS gender clinic for children is risking a “live experiment” by sending hundreds for life-changing medical intervention without sufficient evidence of its long-term effects, experts have warned.

@Readytogogogo

Yeah I do understand the difference between a flue vaccine and other vaccines. I know her son caught the flue because the vaccine hadn't accounted for those strains.
My point was I think the flue vaccine is totally pointless for children

Completely OT but great name DickKerrLadies. I'm quite often in the traffic queue by their plaque.

I think part of the issue is that, in the West at least, vaccination has been so successful that few people have ever seen a case of polio or measles, so have no idea of the severity of these diseases.