Why the sudden hostility to anti-vaxxers? (Not here, I mean in the culture at large...)

[Rocaille]

Sorry, this will be garbled: I'm thinking aloud. First of all, I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I don't think I've ever refused a vaccination, either for myself or DD. But in the last year or so, I've noticed a sudden ramping up of hostility towards people who choose not to vaccinate their children, not necessarily on Mumsnet, but certainly in the culture at large. Even the term 'anti-vaxxer' is a new coinage, I think.

I'm posting to find out, has anyone else noticed this, and if so, what do you make of it?

For me, it's reminiscent of the way that, some years back, the trans agenda appeared suddenly at the forefront of public discourse. In my tinfoil-hat-donning moments, I wonder who decides what issues we debate, when we debate them and to what end. Why now for anti-vax? I suppose there have been some serious measles epidemics in recent years, but that doesn't seem to account for the heat and urgency of debate, or the way anti-vaxxers are being characterised as a certain type of person.

Another thing that makes me associate pro-vax with the trans agenda is that it's potentially about the compulsory medical treatment of children, and removing the parent (mother) as the final arbiter of what can and cannot be done to her child's body. That's where I see pro-vax going.

Could this be another dimension of the same agenda, or have I completely lost the plot?

Yes, part of the culture wars. But an odd one like trans issues where often it is what is called the left/liberals attacking other left/liberals.

I’m in NE London, I am a childminder.
I regularly get emails from the department of health to pass on to parents about vaccinations. In the past three months there has been two child deaths (from measles). The local councils are doing a big push on getting parents to vaccinate. They are opening Saturday drop in clinics at children centres as well as the mid week sessions they already offer.
They even have a family fun day coming up in a near by childrens centre, with picnics and a bouncy castle, and vaccinations.
It’s a real issue, but you cannot make people vaccinate. If they have religious beliefs or other objections, that’s their right as parents. I am really against making it illegal to not vaccinate, I believe this is what they have just done in Spain??? But I may be wrong!

It’s extraordinary the lengths some people will go to ignore a feminist issue.

Sorry- wrong thread.

For those earlier in the thread dismissing chicken pox as a minor illness and “not a big deal”, er, it can result in death or permanent brain damage, etc. From cdc.gov:

Chickenpox is a highly contagious disease caused by the varicella-zoster virus (VZV). It can cause an itchy, blister-like rash. The rash first appears on the chest, back, and face, and then spreads over the entire body, causing between 250 and 500 itchy blisters. Chickenpox can be serious, especially in babies, adolescents, adults, pregnant women, and people with a weakened immune system. The best way to prevent chickenpox is to get the chickenpox vaccine.

Chickenpox used to be very common in the United States. In the early 1990s, an average of 4 million people got chickenpox, 10,500 to 13,000 were hospitalized, and 100 to 150 died each year.

Chickenpox vaccine became available in the United States in 1995. Each year, more than 3.5 million cases of chickenpox, 9,000 hospitalizations, and 100 deaths are prevented by chickenpox vaccination in the United States.
...
Serious complications from chickenpox include:

Bacterial infections of the skin and soft tissues in children, including Group A streptococcal infections
Infection of the lungs (pneumonia)
Infection or inflammation of the brain (encephalitis, cerebellar ataxia)
Bleeding problems (hemorrhagic complications)
Bloodstream infections (sepsis)
Dehydration

Some people with serious complications from chickenpox can become so sick that they need to be hospitalized. Chickenpox can also cause death.

Deaths are very rare now due to the vaccine program. However, some deaths from chickenpox continue to occur in healthy, unvaccinated children and adults. In the past, many of the healthy adults who died from chickenpox contracted the disease from their unvaccinated children.

Then of course there is the lifelong risk of shingles. Like I said, I wish there was a vaccine when I was a kid. Bad enough experience for me but seeing my infant sister fighting it was horrible.

Shingles is horrendous I would consider the vaccine on that basis alone tbh.

BarryBarryTaylor

Ugh, yeah I saw both my grandmother and mother get shingles when they were on chemo. I had chicken pox as a kid so I am counting down the days until they give the shingles vaccine here (at age 50) hoping unlike my grandmother and mother I don’t end up sick before then.

If anyone in my daughter’s class gets chicken pox my daughter has to take an antiviral drug (acyclovir) as a preventative measure.

Because there are outbreaks of measles and mumps and whooping cough in places where these diseases were unknown before the antivax movement. Because my friend has been told by her paediatrician not to bring her 4 month old on the subway in Brooklyn because of the risk of measles. She doesn't have a car and can't afford taxis so she is stuck where she can walk.

There was plenty of anti vax chat years ago too - Andrew Wakefield and the Lancet have a lot to answer for.

Also there has been a strong anti-vax push against the HPV vaccine in certain areas in recent years, resulting in a massive drop off in uptake for the vaccine in girls here (in Ireland). This effectively obliterates any potential for herd immunity.
In terms of HPV anti-vaxxer it is felt be the people in the know that lies being spread will have a real and substantial risk to women's lives.

And against head and neck cancers which are predominantly HPV positive and also more common in men

DD didn't catch chickenpox as a child, so (with her full Informed consent!) had her vaccinated before GCSEs.

There's a large group of young women saying that their health has been seriously damaged by the hpv vaccine. Does anyone think it's a feminist issue that they're not being believed?

I'm aware that, in the past when I've tried to flag drug side effects with doctors, there's been a sort of circular reasoning: 'that's not a known side effect of this drug', etc.

We know that female patients tend not to be taken very seriously when, for example, reporting pain. Could there be a similar effect when reporting vaccination side effects?

Also, the hpv vaccine must present a huge financial boon for the NHS. I've recently had an hpv infection, resulting in a series of colposcopies which must have been costly. I guess that in a few years, as the vaccinated population comes through, spending in these areas will be greatly reduced. There's a big financial incentive not to look into the claims of the women who say their health has been ruined.

Also, the hpv vaccine must present a huge financial boon for the NHS. I've recently had an hpv infection, resulting in a series of colposcopies which must have been costly. I guess that in a few years, as the vaccinated population comes through, spending in these areas will be greatly reduced. There's a big financial incentive not to look into the claims of the women who say their health has been ruined

That’s an interesting thought Op, I hadn’t considered that. It’s cynical but probably correct!

The kind nurse who saw me said, 'It's not the hpv that's the problem, it's the dysplasia'. She was probably just trying to make me feel less skanky, but I do wonder if the hpv vaccine is a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

An approach of watchful waiting and conservative treatment worked really well for me. Although I realise not every woman is so lucky.

Sorry, should have said 'conservative treatment where necessary'. I was lucky in that I didn't need any treatment in the end.

Because it's part of a bigger picture of people thinking they know better than 'so called experts'

FeministCat

That's fine . I'm just saying that not giving the flue jab is a valid choice. As is not giving the Japanese encephalitis jab．And there are damaged kids from vaccines. But I'm not an anti vaxxer. I just don't think anti vaxxers are totally ridiculous that's all. They may be wrong, but not ridiculous, is what I'm saying, going by the documentary I saw about vaccine damaged kids.

MrsHardbroom

I do know better than the so called experts who are giving teenage girls mastectomies I the name of medicine. I they're morally corrupt frankendoktors

Agh I get it, they're saying me accusing doctors who chop off the healthy breasts of young teenage girls , some as young as 13, as being frankendoktors = I must be an anti vaxxer

...And anti vaxxers are wrong , therefore accusing frankendoktors of malpractice is wrong

@sakura I was answering the OP

There have been population-based studies of HPV vaccine recipients that show that the rates of some of the illnesses that have been anecdotally linked to the vaccine are in fact no more common in vaccinated than unvaccinated girls.

I do know better than the so called experts who are giving teenage girls mastectomies I the name of medicine. I they're morally corrupt frankendoktors

Wakefield was supposedly an expert. He was using flawed and inadequate research.
The correct parallels to draw here are pretty clear.

The problem with anti vaxxers, as with the majority of the human population, is that humans are pretty shit at changing their minds about stuff. So it doesn't matter how reasonable you are with your information they ain't buying it. Presented with facts they will ignore them if it means they need a change of heart. Same with anything from flat earthers to Trumpists to Johnsonites. Anything that points to you having made a mistake can be written off as 'fake news'.

Teaching children about this in schools and how changing your mind is not a weakness but a strength would help the population immeasureably.

The internet is just a place where idiots can find their tribe and back up their stupid ideas. There's an interesting article on it here

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds

Like others have already said I think the hostility against anti-vaxxers has become stronger because those diseases we thought we had eradicated (or made weaker) seem to be having a surge again. The children who weren't vaccinated aren't joining that 'herd immunity' which means they 'could' be assisting in the spreading of the diseases.

Of course it's a valid worry that holds back parents from vaccinating. There are children out there who are vaccine damaged. Just as there are children, as previously mentioned, who developed meningitis and had both arms and legs amputated. A quick google search pulled up at least five children that lost all limbs to meningitis - three were children under the age that could be vaccinated. That's where the herd immunity comes in. Those children may have been more protected if those who could have vaccinations, had actually all had them.

But it's no good berating a parent for trying to do the best, as they see it, for their child. It's about informing people, trying to have a sensible debate and listening to concerns. My sister refused the MMR vaccination as her DC was born about the time that discredited link to MMR came out. She managed to get three separate injections done instead by going privately at the time. But that sort of thing needs to be available. Some parents don't vaccinate because they feel 3 in 1 or 6 in 1 is too much - I prefer one injection, less pain. But that's my preference. I'd prefer parents who feel it's too much to be offered 6 separate injections for their child than not be vaccinated at all. And I know all the arguments that parents may forget the 2nd one or whatever. But we get texts to remind us of our appointments now - it's not hard. Better that risk of missing a jab and listen to the parents who worry about this than brand worried parents 'idiots'.

Our GP surgery, if they see us around flu jab time, ask if we've had it and give it to us if we haven't. Our DS has a heart condition so we all get flu jabs to give him umbrella immunity as well as having his own jab. That's an easy one for a GP to say 'oh, I see you missed little Jane's 2nd jab - OK to do it now?' when you take the child in for a check up.

We were all vaccinated as is our DS vaccinated as my family has had a direct death due to no vaccinations being available. My 'would be' aunt died in the 1930s due to diphtheria. She got it from sharing a lolly with her best friend - who was a carrier (not everyone who gets the diseases shows the symptoms). My aunt died, aged 10 years old, because a vaccination wasn't widely available and no NHS in those days.

My mum tells the story of the GP running down the road after he had the results from a throat swab on my aunt. He was shouting 'get the children out of the house - it's diphtheria - get them out now!'. It is that dangerous and that contagious. My mum couldn't go home for two weeks. She stayed with a neighbour.

My aunt died two weeks later, a few weeks before her 11th birthday, unable to swallow and with her neck and shoulders paralysed. An agonising death and my mum had us all vaccinated because of it.

Diphtheria is spread by sharing food, cups, etc (everything kids do) so can't be easily avoided. Without enough people having vaccinations it will be on its way back - you really don't want it.

God knows how that poor little friend of my aunt's felt. Imagine living in the same road and knowing it was traced back to you (GP did tests on everyone and it turned out she was a carrier). My mum's family never blamed her - obviously - it's not like she deliberately played with my aunt knowing she was unwell. But I would imagine it hit her at some point as she grew up and that's hard.

But calling people idiots helps no-one. Making it easier to get single jabs, education, listening and discussing is the way forward but everyone (anti-vaxxers and vaxxers) have to have an open mind. Dismissing anecdotal information (like the mum of my son's friend who is deaf in one ear and has SEN which was directly linked to German Measles in childhood. She was developing correctly, hitting all milestones before she contracted it) is as bad as saying anti-vaxxers are idiots. My friend's life is a very different one from the one she may have had if she hadn't contracted German Measles...

Sorry for the long post but these seemly 'innocent' diseases are only innocent because vaccines have weakened them. We don't want them at full strength again.