Why the sudden hostility to anti-vaxxers? (Not here, I mean in the culture at large...)

[Rocaille]

Sorry, this will be garbled: I'm thinking aloud. First of all, I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I don't think I've ever refused a vaccination, either for myself or DD. But in the last year or so, I've noticed a sudden ramping up of hostility towards people who choose not to vaccinate their children, not necessarily on Mumsnet, but certainly in the culture at large. Even the term 'anti-vaxxer' is a new coinage, I think.

I'm posting to find out, has anyone else noticed this, and if so, what do you make of it?

For me, it's reminiscent of the way that, some years back, the trans agenda appeared suddenly at the forefront of public discourse. In my tinfoil-hat-donning moments, I wonder who decides what issues we debate, when we debate them and to what end. Why now for anti-vax? I suppose there have been some serious measles epidemics in recent years, but that doesn't seem to account for the heat and urgency of debate, or the way anti-vaxxers are being characterised as a certain type of person.

Another thing that makes me associate pro-vax with the trans agenda is that it's potentially about the compulsory medical treatment of children, and removing the parent (mother) as the final arbiter of what can and cannot be done to her child's body. That's where I see pro-vax going.

Could this be another dimension of the same agenda, or have I completely lost the plot?

ColdTattyWaitingForSummer
I actually think that honest conversations around vaccine injury, and the possible risks and side effects, for the individual and wider population, would help; instead of just shutting people down and calling them idiots.

Yes exactly. In the Japanese documentary the vaccine damage I saw was real. The poor mothers crying as they watched video footage of what their kids had been like before they were damaged.

And I'm not an anti vaxxer.

Also can I just say, that when I lived in Japan there were some vaccines that were for diseases passed from person to person. Then there were other vaccines for things you could get from nature, not from other people. Like Japanese encephalitis, which comes from mosquitos. If something comes from mosquitoes you're not putting other kids in danger by refusing this vaccine, only your own kid. So when it came to these nature born illnesses there was far more discussion about whether it's worth it, or not, for you to vaccinate. Doctors would give half an hour talks to parents on the pros and cons of the vaccine, taking into account vaccine damage.
Because I lived in an area with a lot of pig farms, it meant there were more mosquitos than average, so after a lot of deliberation I went ahead with the vaccine for both my kids

I strongly disagree with disallowing unvaccinating children to attend school. I suspect it will just send them underground to homeschool or Steiner schools rather than increase vaccine rates. And then they’ll be off the authorities radar.

Unfortunately that may well be true.

But what should happen if there's an immunocompromised child in the school? There was one in DDs primary; we were all sent letters a couple of times stressing the importance of (a) the other children being fully vaccinated and (b) keeping them away from school if they'd been exposed to eg chickenpox. There was no compulsion or checking, but I never heard any dissent suggesting this was anything other than entirely reasonable.

Maybe we need more documentaries about the damage caused by measles, mumps and rubella, whooping cough, tetanus, meningitis and polio?

Some of us are old enough that we would prefer historical footage to current.

Really difficult Errol and I don’t think there is a satisfactory answer. The only thing I wonder is that unvaccinated children in mainstream schools Presumably do usually have Herd immunity but banning them would make something like a Steiner school a hotbed of risk with little herd immunity. Then those children would likely still interact with other children or potentially end up ie in a hospital ward / GP waiting room with compromised children.

There was a recent outbreak of measles in New York at a Steiner school- about 30 children I believe

Because people like you who do vaccinate anyway and immediately gave that as a disclaimer open debate on the subject constantly so it's always discussed on forums, turns into a bun fight and remains the subject forever.

Barracker makes some interesting points particularly compulsory vaccination. They've never sat comfortably with me. I understand the importance of herd immunity. But a few years back there was quite the debate happening as the government was talking about introducing loss of part of welfare payments for parents who didn't vaccinate their children (I think more concerning preschool and prior to school entry). IIRC the only objection could be made on medical grounds. What is interesting was the targeting of welfare recipients not the comfortable middle class. Sorry I'm not sure of what the outcome was as both DS were past the age groups targeted and were vaccinated.

The other thing I have to say that even annoys me (not anti vaxx) is that bloody Roald Dahl poem about measles.

I know there is a tragedy behind it but does anyone ever stop to wonder who cares what Dahl thinks about vaccinations? He’s an amazing author, not a doctor. He’s not influencing anyone, yet it gets copied and pasted constantly in those Threads.

One can understand that these parents have concerns, but the concerns are grounded in ignorance and are dangerous to the babies.

They’re not grounded in ignorance though, that’s the problem with this debate. The reluctance to talk about actual vaccine damage and why it happens and to whom.

Nobody here can deny children are vaccine damaged. So to say it’s based in idiocy or ignorance is wrong and you’re making the problem worse. If parents had information about why and how, we could possibly get somewhere. My mum still doesn’t know why exactly, but she got more information from honest doctors than we are getting on Internet forums. Hence my repeated suggestions to leave this to proper professionals to discuss.

Banning unvaccinated children from school is stupid. It won’t solve the problem for starters, you can’t possibly isolate yourselves from all unvaccinated people- especially as vaccines wear off and most adults don’t get theirs updated. The only solution is to convince them.

Step 1. Stop calling scared parents idiots.

Errol, I recently watched this short film. It's about an man in the US who is one of the last surviving polio sufferers and has lived for many decades inside an antiquated iron lung. It really brought home to me what vaccines have achieved.

Agree Jessica vaccine damaged children do exist. The vitriol directed to the parents of these children (as I've seen on the internet) is abhorrent.

measles, mumps and rubella, whooping cough, tetanus, meningitis and polio?

I don't think measles is too bad is it? I had that as did my friends, and if you have it when you're a kid you're immune to rubella automatically. I had mumps too, unpleasant. I also had whooping cough. I don't think these diseases are too drastic compared to the vaccine damage I've seen.

I wouldn't take risks with meningitis and polio though.

Surely only pregnant women are immunised against whooping cough anyway and then only to protect baby? It’s not generally serious in adults. A close friend has had it about 4 times

Agree Jessica vaccine damaged children do exist. The vitriol directed to the parents of these children (as I've seen on the internet) is abhorrent.

Yes it is. The dismissal of them, as if they don’t matter at all because many more children are saved, like we are just numbers? It’s awful.

And if a pregnant woman had whooping cough as a kid she's immune anyway?

Sakura - Measles is a killer.

I don’t like the term antivax. I much prefer pro disease.

I don’t like the term antivax. I much prefer pro disease.

Then you are just as ignorant.

I don't think measles is too bad is it? I had that as did my friends, and if you have it when you're a kid you're immune to rubella automatically

Measles is not rubella so infection with that does not protect you against rubella (aka German measles which is misleading).

It's probably a generational thing but I know a lot of people who were damaged by measles and the subsequent secondary complications that have been lifelong (including me) and have impacted their education and work opportunities etc. as well as conferring a disability/chronic health issues.

Many of these children who were damaged by measles weren't visible because they were absent - or their special needs mean that they were taken out of mainstream education (which often meant being sent to a residential school).

iirc, very tragically, earlier this year, a MNetter reported that her child had one of the rarer complications of measles and has been left with life-altering and lifelong consequences.

Handsoff I call BS on your claim. You could always just segregate yourself.

Also, exaggerating disease is something else that won’t help. I’ve seen so many dramatic threads about the chicken pox vaccine- with people not vaccinating being labelled anti vaccine even though it’s not on the NHS schedule- and it frequently exaggerates the danger of CP which we KNOW is a minor if annoying childhood disease for the majority of people.

Surely that just makes anti vaxxers think well I know that’s not true so why should I listen to anything else they’re saying?

arranbubonicplague

Sorry yes, it was German measles I had I. Primary school. That's why when they were doing the rounds at 14 vaccinating the girls against rubella my mum said she was sure I was already immune because of the German measles, so I had a blood test and it was found I was, indeed, naturally immune to rubella. So I avoided that vaccine

I think it's just weird to vaccinate for chicken pox. It's just not serious. I fee people are doing it so they don't need to take days off work

Yes I had measles as a young child and chicken pox at 13 which made for a shitty summer holidays when all I wanted to do was hit the beach.

The problem is that you don't know you have them until the spots appear, and then you could have came in contact with babies too young to be vaccinated or immunosuppressed people... I would hate to have that on my conscience.

That said I do not have the flu vaccine. Flu season here at the moment and the usual reports about the "deadliest flu" ever. If I was employed in a position where I was in regular contact with those at risk I would consider it. But it's my (completely non professional) understanding that these vaccines are based of the strains from the previous season in the northern hemisphere. Viruses do mutate, how effective can it be?

It's because it's selfish.
Babies don't receive MMR until they are at least 12 months old. They are not always immune to it via breastfeeding, and the immunity from that doesn't last long. Pregnant women are not always immune to Rubella (despite having had it in the past or the vaccine), and Rubella causes terrible damage to unborn children. Not everybody can have the vaccine or their immune systems might be compromised, so all of these people who are at risk are put at extra risk when people choose not to vaccinate their children as we lose herd immunity. Just my opinion!