Why the sudden hostility to anti-vaxxers? (Not here, I mean in the culture at large...)

[Rocaille]

Sorry, this will be garbled: I'm thinking aloud. First of all, I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I don't think I've ever refused a vaccination, either for myself or DD. But in the last year or so, I've noticed a sudden ramping up of hostility towards people who choose not to vaccinate their children, not necessarily on Mumsnet, but certainly in the culture at large. Even the term 'anti-vaxxer' is a new coinage, I think.

I'm posting to find out, has anyone else noticed this, and if so, what do you make of it?

For me, it's reminiscent of the way that, some years back, the trans agenda appeared suddenly at the forefront of public discourse. In my tinfoil-hat-donning moments, I wonder who decides what issues we debate, when we debate them and to what end. Why now for anti-vax? I suppose there have been some serious measles epidemics in recent years, but that doesn't seem to account for the heat and urgency of debate, or the way anti-vaxxers are being characterised as a certain type of person.

Another thing that makes me associate pro-vax with the trans agenda is that it's potentially about the compulsory medical treatment of children, and removing the parent (mother) as the final arbiter of what can and cannot be done to her child's body. That's where I see pro-vax going.

Could this be another dimension of the same agenda, or have I completely lost the plot?

orangeshoebox, I’m not defending antivaxxers or people who are irresponsible with antibiotics. I’m saying that the public discourse around the two is very different, even though they’re both big public health issues.

The OP's connection of vaccination with medical treatments for gender dysphoria is misplaced but quite important.

The crucial difference is the concept of evidence-based medicine.

There is abundant evidence for why vaccinations are a good thing, both for individuals and at a population level, which is why it is entirely arguable that they should be mandatory (with medical exceptions, obviously).

There is a dearth of evidence relating to medical treatments for dysphoria in children, which is why they should in general be prohibited or used with extreme caution.

Another thing that makes me associate pro-vax with the trans agenda

and this is why it's really important to understand why you think something - why you have a responsibility to examine the evidence before forming an opinion

the evidence used by anti-vaxxers is discredited by mainstream science, it's complete bollocks. there is plenty of easily understandable evidence that not vaccinating children leads to very serious consequences

with regards to trans issues, it's the other way around. there's loads of evidence that mixed sex spaces are more dangerous for women. We all know that humans can't change sex. I've examined the evidence and I'm confident that genderism and the legal fiction that people can change sex is harmful to women.

cross post with errol !

anti-vaccination movements are one of the highest form in which white privilege can manifest itself.

indeed. Like thiomersal in vaccines - gets attacked here as “they’re putting mercury preservatives in our children!”, with no awareness of why preservatives matter (thiomersal in the developing world means many more children can be vaccinated because you don’t need to rely as much on refrigeration when you’re going out to poor rural areas).

Disclaimer: there's a difference between blanket anti-vaxxers and discussing the application of individual vaccines or in individual children.
Some children and adults may be more susceptible to specific vaccines and some vaccines do need improvement or may not be sufficiently useful in some settings.
But painting vaccines as a whole as dangerous and something to avoid for anyone, it's both stupid and dangerous.

This isn’t really a feminist issue, although most of the ‘blame’ for non-vaxxed kids is aimed at mothers.

It does wax and wane, sometimes there’ll be a lot of vitriol and I think it goes with outbreaks and stuff like that- which have been happening on and off since as long as I can remember, outbreaks aren’t new.

The problem I have with this debate is that, if people really are so concerned with children being unvaccinated, and the goal is to change the minds of those who do not, then all the hate and the ‘go and live on an island by yourselves’ stuff isn’t going to achieve that. So my issue really is with people’s intentions. It’s also with ordinary people getting involved, tbh I think leave the medical profession to deal with the fear and uncertainly out there. They should be the ones answering the questions or concerns, not the rest of us. I always feel uncomfortable with pitting parents against each other. There are people who genuinely have reactions and suffer from those, officially accepted this happens, my brother and I both had severe life threatening reactions. So rather than hate on those who are just fearful in the end, I believe the best way forward is to allow the medical profession to lead the discussion, to encourage them to respectfully and transparently address concerns but away from this ugly unhelpful public debate. My mothers fears were genuine and valid, she had to carry on vaccinating after almost losing two children. Labelling her or calling her crazy wouldn’t have helped. She worked with our doctors, and together they decided what I could or couldn’t have going forward. The same concerns we had when my brother and I had children, were addressed privately and respectfully.

Just bear in mind always, most parents want the best and want to protect their children. Anyone who is fearful should be treated with respect in my opinion. I also believe in bodily autonomy always. So the only way forward is to convince people. We won’t achieve and get full vaccination rates if these parents are treated like they are crazy or evil.

Some children and adults may be more susceptible to specific vaccines and some vaccines do need improvement or may not be sufficiently useful in some settings.

Exactly.

And to the white privilege stuff... some ethnicities seem to react more, aboriginal, Polynesian, i have heard of.

@ArnoldWhatshisknickers but unless you want to change their mind what’s the point engaging with them? And you won’t change their mind by bullying them

public discourse around the two is very different, even though they’re both big public health issues.

You're correct. I doubt know how much of that is because opposition to vaccination has a history that now crosses centuries (literally, there was an anti-Jenner League) and the issue of antibiotic resistance is relatively new to people and not well understood by the general public.

NB - on the issue of antibiotics, I saw a sad note recently that gave me pause for thought. Over my lifetime, cystic fibrosis has gone from something that resulted in very premature death to something for which there are now good management therapies and there are people routinely living into mid and later life. However, that progress is now being eroded because antibiotic resistance means that infection-related deaths from cystic fibrosis are increasing as the antibiotic options diminish. The true magnitude of what we face will probably only become apparent when more stories like this are known and affect other diseases or even influence the outcomes of routine surgery.

Health organisations like WHO use terms like "vaccine hesitancy" instead, to try to build bridges and support better communication.

Yes, this will achieve more than words like ‘idiots’

It's the internet.

People have warmed up and are happy to loudly share their opinions with the faceless world.

Previously people only shared opinions with friends and aquaintences and usually would take their feelings into account before being very strong in their opinions about possibly sensitive topics (involving health, emotional wellbeing etc).

And now they have practiced being opinionated online they have now taken their well practiced opinions into their real life lives.

I think because they are not only putting their own children at risk of these diseases but they are also putting other vulnerable people at risk. My heart goes out to all of the people that have lost their baby due to contracting one of these diseases before they were able to be vaccinated. The only conspiracy was conducted by Andrew Wakefield (now a discredited doctor) to discredit the MMR to line his own pockets. There are lots of articles in the BMJ that fully documents his fraud and refutes his claims.

I'm not an anti vaxxer but I did watch a Japanese documentary about children who had been damaged by vaccines and it was heartbreaking. The poor mothers showing the before and after videos of their kids

If you don't trust medical professionals then don't use them for anything - broken bones, chronic illness anything

I would have thought we have the right to choose our care, based on what we want We might agree with professionals sometimes, and not others. Doctors make mistakes all the time. There was that doctor a few years ago who cut off over a hundred women's breasts in unnecessary mastectomies, when they didn't even have cancer, because he had a pervy fetish for cutting off breasts.

Wakefield has blood on his hands.

It's not new. My children were born in the early 90s, so before Andrew Wakefield got going, but even then some people were missing out the MMR. One woman I knew had chosen not to have her son immunised against anything at all, not even diphtheria, tetanus, polio, whooping cough. She then took him to Thailand on holiday. Incredibly irresponsible.

It was very clear even then that a lot of the people opting out of immunising their children were relying on herd immunity. They may not have explicitly thought about it, but they took it as read that their children wouldn't get the nasty diseases because they were so rare by then - because most other people had had the immunisations. I find that selfish. The kids who can't be immunised and the people whose immune systems are compromised all need that herd immunity.

After hearing about mastectomy fetish man, I actually think it's really stupid for women to blithely trust doctors

I'd suggest that the reason why the treatment of dysphoric children has been less bad here than in the US is precisely that we have a slightly paternalistic medical culture, rather than a consumerist one

While things have been bad here, I think that the tide is turning now - Carl Heneghan and the Royal College of GPs have both expressed reservations, and that is major. There's nothing like that in the US, where the culture is - patient asks, patient gets

It's an interesting first post, particularly when there is a prevailing narrative around TERFs being anti-vaxxers in some internet circles.

I wonder if it's because they are trying to make that women who question the gender narrative are actually just anti-medicine altogether?

Boys can get HPV vaccines too. It’s available where I am.
The UK is offering it in some areas.

I wonder if it's because they are trying to make that women who question the gender narrative are actually just anti-medicine altogether?*

It's not a stretch to say that terfs aren't worshippers of medicine, when we see what passes for medicine.
Like I say I'm not an anti vaxxer, but it's almost like critique of medicine is wrong think. This has always been standard patriarchal narrative, nothing new here

I actually think that honest conversations around vaccine injury, and the possible risks and side effects, for the individual and wider population, would help; instead of just shutting people down and calling them idiots. (I’m not an anti-vaxxer and I’m pretty sure my dc are up to date with their jabs.)
And I do see OP’s concern that this “government knows best” high handed attitude could spill over into other areas of medicine. We have to start with a presumption that parents love and know their children, and want what’s best for them.